Swindon AdvertiserTop cop’s no to armed response (From Swindon Advertiser)

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Top cop’s no to armed response

Swindon Advertiser: PCs Mark Field and Bob Lindsay of the Wiltshire Police Armed Response Team PCs Mark Field and Bob Lindsay of the Wiltshire Police Armed Response Team

A POLICE chief has said that officers patrolling the streets of Swindon and Wiltshire should not be routinely armed.

Assistant Chief Constable Steve Hedley does not believe the case has been met despite tragedies elsewhere in the country.

The murder of two unarmed WPcs in Manchester revived calls for the police to carry guns, but few forces back such a plan.

Ass Chief Con Hedley said: “I personally wouldn’t want to see all of our police officers armed.

“There is a need for some officers to be armed as we have to protect the public on the very, very few occasions when we encounter people who are armed.

“In an area like Wiltshire however the amount of firearms incidents is very low.

"Our officers would face additional dangers if they were routinely armed and this would mean we would have to put in place additional training and additional security measures.

“There is no need for all of our officers to be issued with firearms.”

Unarmed Nicola Hughes, 23, and Fiona Bone, 32, were shot dead last September while responding to a report of a burglary in Manchester.

Sir Hugh Orde, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, ruled out arming all officers after the killings.

Ass Chief Con Hedley also said officers were suffering fewer assaults and injuries as a result of improvements in training and equipment.

“We have far better protection nowadays with the personal protection equipment, the incapacitatant spray, the body armour and the radio equipment, which makes it easier to call for assistance,” he said.

“Wiltshire is a safe county compared to more urban areas which are more difficult to police and it is not a dangerous place.

“We do go out 24/7 and come across people who want to get involved in fights and want to fight the police.

“We do on occasions, when we are on duty, get hurt.

“Fortunately serious injuries are very rare.”

Comments (17)

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11:52am Mon 14 Jan 13

The Real Librarian says...

Heckler & Koch G36K's - very nice
Heckler & Koch G36K's - very nice The Real Librarian
  • Score: 0

1:10pm Mon 14 Jan 13

SockPuppet says...

Well done Mr Hedley, routinely wearing weapons would just encourage criminal to arm themselves.
Well done Mr Hedley, routinely wearing weapons would just encourage criminal to arm themselves. SockPuppet
  • Score: 0

1:51pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Tim Newroman says...

SockPuppet wrote:
Well done Mr Hedley, routinely wearing weapons would just encourage criminal to arm themselves.
Any criminals who wish to be armed already have weapons to hand.

It just means they have an even greater advantage over the police and public than they normally do.

Take Rome as an example - the police openly carry guns and operate a zero tolerance policy where nonsense is concerned. You respect the police because to do otherwise would be very, very stupid indeed.

Off-duty police officers are also permitted to carry their weapons, as long as they're concealed - which actually acts as an even greater deterrent.

And, surprise, surprise, their murder rate is almost half that of London and their robbery/street crime rate is around 30% lower.

Coincidence? Of course not.
[quote][p][bold]SockPuppet[/bold] wrote: Well done Mr Hedley, routinely wearing weapons would just encourage criminal to arm themselves.[/p][/quote]Any criminals who wish to be armed already have weapons to hand. [p] It just means they have an even greater advantage over the police and public than they normally do. [p] Take Rome as an example - the police openly carry guns and operate a zero tolerance policy where nonsense is concerned. You respect the police because to do otherwise would be very, very stupid indeed. [p] Off-duty police officers are also permitted to carry their weapons, as long as they're concealed - which actually acts as an even greater deterrent. [p] And, surprise, surprise, their murder rate is almost half that of London and their robbery/street crime rate is around 30% lower. [p] Coincidence? Of course not. Tim Newroman
  • Score: 0

2:26pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Phantom Poster says...

Correlation does not imply causation.
Correlation does not imply causation. Phantom Poster
  • Score: 0

4:31pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Tim Newroman says...

Phantom Poster wrote:
Correlation does not imply causation.
Indeed, that's very true in some cases.

Some people claim that criminals arming themselves can more often be observed in countries where the police are armed. Would you assert your 'Correlation does not imply causation' statement in that scenario?
[quote][p][bold]Phantom Poster[/bold] wrote: Correlation does not imply causation.[/p][/quote]Indeed, that's very true in some cases. [p] Some people claim that criminals arming themselves can more often be observed in countries where the police are armed. Would you assert your 'Correlation does not imply causation' statement in that scenario? Tim Newroman
  • Score: 0

4:53pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Phantom Poster says...

Yes, of course - it's true in all cases.

Causation requires proof of a cause and effect link - not speculation.

Your statement could be reversed - police arm themselves where the criminal is already commonly armed. Who knows? People claim lots of things without facts to back them up.
Yes, of course - it's true in all cases. Causation requires proof of a cause and effect link - not speculation. Your statement could be reversed - police arm themselves where the criminal is already commonly armed. Who knows? People claim lots of things without facts to back them up. Phantom Poster
  • Score: 0

6:34pm Mon 14 Jan 13

daws says...

Dont need to be armed?? They obviously aint gonna be patrolling park south and the valley then ;-]
Dont need to be armed?? They obviously aint gonna be patrolling park south and the valley then ;-] daws
  • Score: 0

6:46pm Mon 14 Jan 13

Phantom Poster says...

Tim Newroman wrote:
SockPuppet wrote:
Well done Mr Hedley, routinely wearing weapons would just encourage criminal to arm themselves.
Any criminals who wish to be armed already have weapons to hand.

It just means they have an even greater advantage over the police and public than they normally do.

Take Rome as an example - the police openly carry guns and operate a zero tolerance policy where nonsense is concerned. You respect the police because to do otherwise would be very, very stupid indeed.

Off-duty police officers are also permitted to carry their weapons, as long as they're concealed - which actually acts as an even greater deterrent.

And, surprise, surprise, their murder rate is almost half that of London and their robbery/street crime rate is around 30% lower.

Coincidence? Of course not.
What is the relevance of murder rates to whether or not the police are armed?

My guess would be that most people don't murder someone when a policeman is around.

In Rome they have more restaurants selling pasta that in London. So that seems to correlate with the relative crime rates. Perhaps people in Rome are too full with pasta to commit crimes!

Possible correlations are endless - demographics, poverty, culture etc.

In this article and in a lot of other, I have read that many police officers don't actually want to be armed.
[quote][p][bold]Tim Newroman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SockPuppet[/bold] wrote: Well done Mr Hedley, routinely wearing weapons would just encourage criminal to arm themselves.[/p][/quote]Any criminals who wish to be armed already have weapons to hand. [p] It just means they have an even greater advantage over the police and public than they normally do. [p] Take Rome as an example - the police openly carry guns and operate a zero tolerance policy where nonsense is concerned. You respect the police because to do otherwise would be very, very stupid indeed. [p] Off-duty police officers are also permitted to carry their weapons, as long as they're concealed - which actually acts as an even greater deterrent. [p] And, surprise, surprise, their murder rate is almost half that of London and their robbery/street crime rate is around 30% lower. [p] Coincidence? Of course not.[/p][/quote]What is the relevance of murder rates to whether or not the police are armed? My guess would be that most people don't murder someone when a policeman is around. In Rome they have more restaurants selling pasta that in London. So that seems to correlate with the relative crime rates. Perhaps people in Rome are too full with pasta to commit crimes! Possible correlations are endless - demographics, poverty, culture etc. In this article and in a lot of other, I have read that many police officers don't actually want to be armed. Phantom Poster
  • Score: 0

8:37pm Mon 14 Jan 13

semitonic says...

The Real Librarian wrote:
Heckler & Koch G36K's - very nice
Ok so you know a bit about guns and you want people to know that.

Can you explain why they are 'very nice' please?
[quote][p][bold]The Real Librarian[/bold] wrote: Heckler & Koch G36K's - very nice[/p][/quote]Ok so you know a bit about guns and you want people to know that. Can you explain why they are 'very nice' please? semitonic
  • Score: 0

8:03am Tue 15 Jan 13

Tim Newroman says...

Phantom Poster wrote:
Tim Newroman wrote:
SockPuppet wrote:
Well done Mr Hedley, routinely wearing weapons would just encourage criminal to arm themselves.
Any criminals who wish to be armed already have weapons to hand.

It just means they have an even greater advantage over the police and public than they normally do.

Take Rome as an example - the police openly carry guns and operate a zero tolerance policy where nonsense is concerned. You respect the police because to do otherwise would be very, very stupid indeed.

Off-duty police officers are also permitted to carry their weapons, as long as they're concealed - which actually acts as an even greater deterrent.

And, surprise, surprise, their murder rate is almost half that of London and their robbery/street crime rate is around 30% lower.

Coincidence? Of course not.
What is the relevance of murder rates to whether or not the police are armed?

My guess would be that most people don't murder someone when a policeman is around.

In Rome they have more restaurants selling pasta that in London. So that seems to correlate with the relative crime rates. Perhaps people in Rome are too full with pasta to commit crimes!

Possible correlations are endless - demographics, poverty, culture etc.

In this article and in a lot of other, I have read that many police officers don't actually want to be armed.
Yes, all very true. But you cannot ignore common sense associations.

Murder is the most serious crime anyone can commit. It is the crime statistic that nations are compared by and measured against.

I note you ignored the fact that Rome's robbery/street crime levels are aroun 30% lower than London's.

Your example re. pasta in restaurants is clearly fairly ridiculous. I'm sure everyone gets the point you're attempting to make, but I would suggest most people realise that an armed policeman standing outside a restaurant is more likely to lower crime in that restaurant than whether somebody orders the fish rather than pasta.

Re. your point about the police not wishing to be armed, that's barely relevant. I'm sure there are lots of things, as with any employee in any job, that the police would rather not do.

I used the example of Rome because Italy is comparable in many ways to the UK. If you've been to Italy, you can't have failed to notice the respect the police command over there. In part, that is due to being armed but mainly because they simply do not stand for the nonsense that our police do. They do not make 'friends' with criminals, they deal with them appropriately.

Yes, it may be completely unrelated, but the fact remains that their serious crime rates and street crime rates are much, much lower than ours.
[quote][p][bold]Phantom Poster[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tim Newroman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SockPuppet[/bold] wrote: Well done Mr Hedley, routinely wearing weapons would just encourage criminal to arm themselves.[/p][/quote]Any criminals who wish to be armed already have weapons to hand. [p] It just means they have an even greater advantage over the police and public than they normally do. [p] Take Rome as an example - the police openly carry guns and operate a zero tolerance policy where nonsense is concerned. You respect the police because to do otherwise would be very, very stupid indeed. [p] Off-duty police officers are also permitted to carry their weapons, as long as they're concealed - which actually acts as an even greater deterrent. [p] And, surprise, surprise, their murder rate is almost half that of London and their robbery/street crime rate is around 30% lower. [p] Coincidence? Of course not.[/p][/quote]What is the relevance of murder rates to whether or not the police are armed? My guess would be that most people don't murder someone when a policeman is around. In Rome they have more restaurants selling pasta that in London. So that seems to correlate with the relative crime rates. Perhaps people in Rome are too full with pasta to commit crimes! Possible correlations are endless - demographics, poverty, culture etc. In this article and in a lot of other, I have read that many police officers don't actually want to be armed.[/p][/quote]Yes, all very true. But you cannot ignore common sense associations. [p] Murder is the most serious crime anyone can commit. It is the crime statistic that nations are compared by and measured against. [p] I note you ignored the fact that Rome's robbery/street crime levels are aroun 30% lower than London's. [p] Your example re. pasta in restaurants is clearly fairly ridiculous. I'm sure everyone gets the point you're attempting to make, but I would suggest most people realise that an armed policeman standing outside a restaurant is more likely to lower crime in that restaurant than whether somebody orders the fish rather than pasta. [p] Re. your point about the police not wishing to be armed, that's barely relevant. I'm sure there are lots of things, as with any employee in any job, that the police would rather not do. [p] I used the example of Rome because Italy is comparable in many ways to the UK. If you've been to Italy, you can't have failed to notice the respect the police command over there. In part, that is due to being armed but mainly because they simply do not stand for the nonsense that our police do. They do not make 'friends' with criminals, they deal with them appropriately. [p] Yes, it may be completely unrelated, but the fact remains that their serious crime rates and street crime rates are much, much lower than ours. Tim Newroman
  • Score: 0

8:23am Tue 15 Jan 13

house on the hill says...

Maybe if we had proper sentencing for crimes that would have an effect on the crime rate. As many have said, if a criminal wants to carry a gun they will irrespective of what the police do as they are not planning for the police to be there when they commit their crime! There are probably hundreds if not thousands of guns in Swindon so arming them wouldnt make a bit of difference. Judges with backbones and an understanding of the real world would be far more useful and effective.
Maybe if we had proper sentencing for crimes that would have an effect on the crime rate. As many have said, if a criminal wants to carry a gun they will irrespective of what the police do as they are not planning for the police to be there when they commit their crime! There are probably hundreds if not thousands of guns in Swindon so arming them wouldnt make a bit of difference. Judges with backbones and an understanding of the real world would be far more useful and effective. house on the hill
  • Score: 0

12:20pm Tue 15 Jan 13

A.Baron-Cohen says...

Considering the low pay, the fact they are not armed and their falling numbers, the police is doing a superb job in a very difficult situation.
The greatest obstacle that the police faces is the justice system, overpaid Judges and Lawyers are dragging their feet and releasing vast numbers of criminals and therefore failing to protect Society.
Reform of the Justice system is absolutely necessary, elected Judges maybe?
Considering the low pay, the fact they are not armed and their falling numbers, the police is doing a superb job in a very difficult situation. The greatest obstacle that the police faces is the justice system, overpaid Judges and Lawyers are dragging their feet and releasing vast numbers of criminals and therefore failing to protect Society. Reform of the Justice system is absolutely necessary, elected Judges maybe? A.Baron-Cohen
  • Score: 0

12:25pm Tue 15 Jan 13

Always Grumpy says...

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Considering the low pay, the fact they are not armed and their falling numbers, the police is doing a superb job in a very difficult situation.
The greatest obstacle that the police faces is the justice system, overpaid Judges and Lawyers are dragging their feet and releasing vast numbers of criminals and therefore failing to protect Society.
Reform of the Justice system is absolutely necessary, elected Judges maybe?
Low pay? Wherever did you get that one from? The police are very well paid for the little thay do.
I'll agree with you that the courts are useless though.
[quote][p][bold]A.Baron-Cohen[/bold] wrote: Considering the low pay, the fact they are not armed and their falling numbers, the police is doing a superb job in a very difficult situation. The greatest obstacle that the police faces is the justice system, overpaid Judges and Lawyers are dragging their feet and releasing vast numbers of criminals and therefore failing to protect Society. Reform of the Justice system is absolutely necessary, elected Judges maybe?[/p][/quote]Low pay? Wherever did you get that one from? The police are very well paid for the little thay do. I'll agree with you that the courts are useless though. Always Grumpy
  • Score: 0

12:35pm Tue 15 Jan 13

Tim Newroman says...

A.Baron-Cohen says...

Reform of the Justice system is absolutely necessary, elected Judges maybe?


Without doubt, in the case of the former.

With regards to a system of locally elected judges, yes, it would make good sense. Everyone who wanted to live in areas where criminals are treated unduly leniently could do so, it would be entirely their choice.

The rest of us could then ensure we lived in areas of much lower crime.

Judges could still sentence however they see fit and those who chose to do a decent job would enjoy a long career.
[quote][b]A.Baron-Cohen says... [/b] [p] Reform of the Justice system is absolutely necessary, elected Judges maybe? [/quote] [p] Without doubt, in the case of the former. [p] With regards to a system of locally elected judges, yes, it would make good sense. Everyone who wanted to live in areas where criminals are treated unduly leniently could do so, it would be entirely their choice. [p] The rest of us could then ensure we lived in areas of much lower crime. [p] Judges could still sentence however they see fit and those who chose to do a decent job would enjoy a long career. Tim Newroman
  • Score: 0

1:01pm Tue 15 Jan 13

The Real Librarian says...

semitonic wrote:
The Real Librarian wrote: Heckler & Koch G36K's - very nice
Ok so you know a bit about guns and you want people to know that. Can you explain why they are 'very nice' please?
German and spanish army main rifle.
Takes the standard NATO round.
Used by our own SAS.
Range of barrel lengths for various tasks.
Lightweight and reliable.
[quote][p][bold]semitonic[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Real Librarian[/bold] wrote: Heckler & Koch G36K's - very nice[/p][/quote]Ok so you know a bit about guns and you want people to know that. Can you explain why they are 'very nice' please?[/p][/quote]German and spanish army main rifle. Takes the standard NATO round. Used by our own SAS. Range of barrel lengths for various tasks. Lightweight and reliable. The Real Librarian
  • Score: 0

1:51pm Tue 15 Jan 13

house on the hill says...

The Real Librarian says...
1:01pm Tue 15 Jan 13


semitonic wrote:

The Real Librarian wrote: Heckler & Koch G36K's - very nice
Ok so you know a bit about guns and you want people to know that. Can you explain why they are 'very nice' please?German and spanish army main rifle.
Takes the standard NATO round.
Used by our own SAS.
Range of barrel lengths for various tasks.
Lightweight and reliable.”


PRAT!!!
The Real Librarian says... 1:01pm Tue 15 Jan 13 semitonic wrote: The Real Librarian wrote: Heckler & Koch G36K's - very nice Ok so you know a bit about guns and you want people to know that. Can you explain why they are 'very nice' please?German and spanish army main rifle. Takes the standard NATO round. Used by our own SAS. Range of barrel lengths for various tasks. Lightweight and reliable.” PRAT!!! house on the hill
  • Score: 0

7:57pm Tue 15 Jan 13

semitonic says...

What I was thinking.

How anything designed to kill people could be described as 'very nice' is beyond me. Like saying an electric chair is a great bit of engineering.

Sad, but that's Ook for ya.
What I was thinking. How anything designed to kill people could be described as 'very nice' is beyond me. Like saying an electric chair is a great bit of engineering. Sad, but that's Ook for ya. semitonic
  • Score: 0

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