One third of smokers use illegal tobacco (From Swindon Advertiser)

This was forseen with the continued high duty on tobacco plus the banning of the cigarette vending machines and restrictions on supermarkets. It just drives the market underground.

While I don't smoke myself, plenty of people I know still smoke and it's rare to see anyone pull out a pack of cigarettes or tobacco that isn't obviously of non-UK origin. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it's illegal, but it does show that UK duty is now so high that it's possible to drive abroad, buy the stuff, sell it back here at half the price and still make money.

The official line that the high taxation is only there to protect the little cheeldren is part of the reason why so many smokers seem more than happy to break the law.

this pours water on the normal argument that smokers pay more than they use in terms of the NHS...lets see how bob spins it.

This problem will only increase while successive governments and 'do gooders' use smokers, drinkers and drivers as punchbags.

dc the 2nd wrote:
this pours water on the normal argument that smokers pay more than they use in terms of the NHS...lets see how bob spins it.

Yes, I'm looking forward to the "smokers pay for the NHS" argument

With the price of cigarettes now I can see more and more armed robberies on newsagents happening

stu2010 wrote:
With the price of cigarettes now I can see more and more armed robberies on newsagents happening

But that's what this article highlights, there's no need to rob newsagents when you can easily pick up very cheap imported/illegal cigarettes.

I don't even smoke but know a number of places in Swindon where you can buy them simply by driving up and handing over the money.

" three in 10 smokers in Swindon smoking illegal tobacco"

With it being the quoted figures above, I would of thought that argument still holds true to some degree, 7 out of 10 are paying a huge amount of tax, I'm sure you'd agree figures are nearly always massaged to suit the case.

Once again Smokefree South West go on a campaign without publishing the figures of how much money IS raised by full tax paying smokers, why is that?

The one and only reason any of this has come to light is this,

"HMRC figures show that in 2010 the associated revenue loss caused by illegal tobacco in the UK was estimated to be £2.18bn – today that figure has dropped to £1.86bn. "

Tax collection/ evasion, is the driving force behind this, the health reasons come a poor second.
And no I don't smoke, I would just like to see some honesty from these campaign managers.

I Could Do That wrote:

dc the 2nd wrote: this pours water on the normal argument that smokers pay more than they use in terms of the NHS...lets see how bob spins it.

Yes, I'm looking forward to the "smokers pay for the NHS" argument

http://www.ash.org.u
k/files/documents/AS
H_121.pdf

Ian13 wrote:

I Could Do That wrote:

dc the 2nd wrote: this pours water on the normal argument that smokers pay more than they use in terms of the NHS...lets see how bob spins it.

Yes, I'm looking forward to the "smokers pay for the NHS" argument

http://www.ash.org.u k/files/documents/AS H_121.pdf

Sorry that link is not working - search for ASH "The economics of tobacco"

Rolling tobacco is readily available and always had been. This is nothing new

dc the 2nd wrote:
this pours water on the normal argument that smokers pay more than they use in terms of the NHS...lets see how bob spins it.

You won't hear from Robbo until he finishes his shift at B&Q.

"The only people who benefit from this trade are the criminals who don’t care about what is in the packets they sell."

Because as the recent horsemeat events have shown, big businesses are utterly reliable when it comes to the contents of their products???

Are they talking about illegal ie home made tobacco products which may have anything put in them or the tobacco that has not been ripped off by UK taxes.

The ECC has not done much to equal out the costs af various cash cow products like tobacco, fuel or alcohol.

What is worse losing a bit of tax or eating beef products with horse meat of unknown origin.

Tax something to the point of stupidity and people will turn to alternative sources. How simple does it need to be to be any more totally bloody obvious?!

Prohibition has NEVER worked. Taxation only works if its reasonable and sustainable. I don't smoke - but smoking IS legal - and if the taxation is kept reasonable, those who chose to smoke will more than pay for their care through the tax they pay. Trying to use social engineering through high taxation to make them stop though is only ever going to make tobacco a smugglable product. I mean DUH!!! I can't believe these people see fit to pontificate? If they want to stop ILLEGAL tobacco, they should be lobbying to reduce lax on LEGAL tobacco. Of course, what this is really about is their patronising need to impose their own lifestyle choices upon those of others. If their brains were gunpowder, they'd not have enough to blow off their hats.

As always there are 2 sides to every situation. Smoking is totally voluntary so if you cant afford it then just dont do it, stop moaning about the price of something. It would be like eating out and moaning because the cost was 10 time what the ingredients cost to buy.

As for the tax argument, thats always stupid. So if someone smokes and pays loads of tax but doesnt become ill because of it, presumably they should get a refund then? Or if they do become ill and someone says they have used up all the tax money they actually paid they just stop the treatment? Taxation is the most "unfair" way of paying for things as those who dont become ill end up paying for those that do under your argument that "smokers" in general pay enough tax to cover the treatment. I think if you worked out the cost of treating eveyone who smoked it wouldnt come anywhere near close to what was required.

And I always love the way people who try to discourage smoking are called "do gooders"! They are just trying to save your health and your life, your wallet and from smelling like an old ashtray, I would just call them the "common sensers"

This article also highlights the usual "double standards" brigade, who are quick to moan at the police and courts for being soft, but are happy to buy cigarettes they know to be illegal and break the law themselves on a rgualar basis!

I'm all for encouraging people to stop smoking - but the simple fact is that its legal. If the way of 'discouraging' them actually encourages behaviour which supports ilegal activity and criminal gangs, then that attempt is obviously STUPID, and self defeating isn't it? Criticising people for people 'moaning' about the cost is irrelevent if millions of them are going to avoid paying the tax by buying ilegal tobacco. Taking a moral high hose over it is all very well - but looks stupid when its going to both cost the exchequer billions of pounds and will completely fail to address the problem.

I also don't get where your spurious argument about them getting the tax back comes from either. No. I'm not suggesting that, and to my knowledge, nobody else is. But the fact (uncomfortable to you as it might be) is that taxation on smoking is more than capable of paying for the health care fo those effected by their habit. Seems they're paying as they go to me. Like I said, I don't smoke - but in a similar way to my not wanting to impose my ideas of health upon them, I also don't propose swingeing taxation on those who eat too much, ride horses, drive motorbikes or make any number of free lifestyle choices about things which make them more suseptible to death or injury. Unfortunately, striking a sensible balance between fascism and tollerance seems to be something very unbritish these days. Somebody somewhere always wants to make someone else suffer for the choices they make for themselves.

@house on the hill: while I agree with much of what you've said, I don't personally agree that smokers should simply accept the disproportionate level of taxation and duty on the product they choose to buy.

I don't smoke, but I do drive - and feel fuel duty is utterly unfair and far, far too high. Likewise with alcohol duty. Even as a non-smoker, I can sympathise with smokers when they feel their being unduly punished... for doing something which is entirely their right to do, legally, if they so wish.

The reality is the governments know full well that people will not, in general, 'give up' certain things just because they become more unfairly taxed.

What does happen is that all taxation reaches a tipping point, at which stage the law of diminishing returns kicks in. It's happened with fuel and it's now happening with tobacco.

If it wasn't for the excessive amount of tax on tobacco products there wouldn't be so many illegal tobacco products on our streets. A cut in duty would see an increase in the takings of UK shops and also in revenue collected by the Government. A cut in duty would also hurt criminal gangs and terrorists groups.

I applaud the Gov't's efforts to reduce smoking, but Price Prohibition has led to Al Capone getting into the business.

Also you harder to tell the origin of the tobacco now because in European Airports the health warnings appear in English sometimes.

The reality is if we can't stop drugs coming in, how on Earth will the HMRC ever stop cigarettes? The crooks have the money to afford 'lost shipments,' better weapons, and Mr Big is usually far away leaving his mules to go to jail.

Simple--if the govt do not collect enough revenue from tobacco--they will get tax from other pleasures--beer/booz
e and cars being the favourites.

Given that cigarettes can be legitimately purchased in many European countries and imported for pence per packet provided the UK duty is paid, why buy suspect cigarettes.

http://www.foresteir
eann.org/blog/2011/9
/7/price-of-cigarett
es-around-europe.htm
l

Obesity is surely a huge cost on the NHS and unhealthy for children much the same as tobacco so why aren't Big Macs taxed accordingly they should be at least £9 each. Then they could also be sold under the counter by your local crime boss to pay for weapons of mass destruction.

Amazing level of ignorance and hypocrisy from the Authorities.
One in 10 smokers in Swindon, smoking illegal (Untaxed) tobacco and the major concern is about the unpaid taxes......
I thought that maybe the authorities would be more concerned about the risks to public health......

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Amazing level of ignorance and hypocrisy from the Authorities.
One in 10 smokers in Swindon, smoking illegal (Untaxed) tobacco and the major concern is about the unpaid taxes......
I thought that maybe the authorities would be more concerned about the risks to public health......

Why? If you've freely chosen to put one of these death sticks in your mouth, you've demonstrated that you plainly don't care about your health, so why should the authorities?

The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man wrote:

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Amazing level of ignorance and hypocrisy from the Authorities.
One in 10 smokers in Swindon, smoking illegal (Untaxed) tobacco and the major concern is about the unpaid taxes......
I thought that maybe the authorities would be more concerned about the risks to public health......

Why? If you've freely chosen to put one of these death sticks in your mouth, you've demonstrated that you plainly don't care about your health, so why should the authorities?

A simplistic view, Authorities are paid / elected to serve and protect, this is the fundamental mission of Public Services.
As far as I know, the UK is not yet a Nazi State so we should not expect the Authorities to give certain people with "special treatment" anytime soon, for now we all get treated the same, smokers or not.

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:

The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man wrote:

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Amazing level of ignorance and hypocrisy from the Authorities.
One in 10 smokers in Swindon, smoking illegal (Untaxed) tobacco and the major concern is about the unpaid taxes......
I thought that maybe the authorities would be more concerned about the risks to public health......

Why? If you've freely chosen to put one of these death sticks in your mouth, you've demonstrated that you plainly don't care about your health, so why should the authorities?

A simplistic view, Authorities are paid / elected to serve and protect, this is the fundamental mission of Public Services.
As far as I know, the UK is not yet a Nazi State so we should not expect the Authorities to give certain people with "special treatment" anytime soon, for now we all get treated the same, smokers or not.

You really are a nasty little man, aren't you?
Why is it that every time you dislike or disagree with someone else's opinion you call it simplistic, ignorant or whatever and then go on to compare the UK with the nazis, if their viewpoint doesn't fit your weird little agenda.
Why don't you grow up and face reality and stop spouting your out of date, left wing propaganda.
Propaganda was a hallmark of the nazi regime you know.

Once the government has succeeded through taxation to stop the whole of the UK from smoking, drinking alcohol and using gas guzzlers that do not do at least 450mpg....that will be the time that our wages will be taxed 75p in the Pound or possibly Euro by then

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:

The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man wrote:

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Amazing level of ignorance and hypocrisy from the Authorities.
One in 10 smokers in Swindon, smoking illegal (Untaxed) tobacco and the major concern is about the unpaid taxes......
I thought that maybe the authorities would be more concerned about the risks to public health......

Why? If you've freely chosen to put one of these death sticks in your mouth, you've demonstrated that you plainly don't care about your health, so why should the authorities?

A simplistic view, Authorities are paid / elected to serve and protect, this is the fundamental mission of Public Services.
As far as I know, the UK is not yet a Nazi State so we should not expect the Authorities to give certain people with "special treatment" anytime soon, for now we all get treated the same, smokers or not.

Hard to see why you might think 'we all get treated the same' in the UK. That's very clearly not the case. Name any aspect of life you care to mention: taxation, the courts, employment, education, access to benefits... the authorities and the system treats people very differently across the board.

'Certain people' absolutely do get 'special treatment'.

I dont share the notion that by reducing taxes people will buy legal products also there is so much money in illegal sales of so many things that the "gangs" would find a way to undercut the legal price somehow, they arent simply going to disappear with all that potential income out there. Whether you agree with the level of taxation in this country or not it still remains the law and whether you like it or not, you cant just pick and choose the laws you like or dont like to keep to, or where does that end? This debate will never be agreed as there are so many differing views, choices and attitudes and if you choose to break the law and not pay taxes then thats up to you.

snazzle wrote:
Once the government has succeeded through taxation to stop the whole of the UK from smoking, drinking alcohol and using gas guzzlers that do not do at least 450mpg....that will be the time that our wages will be taxed 75p in the Pound or possibly Euro by then

Spot on!!!

""""""Simples! says...
8:36pm Tue 26 Feb 13

snazzle wrote:
Once the government has succeeded through taxation to stop the whole of the UK from smoking, drinking alcohol and using gas guzzlers that do not do at least 450mpg....that will be the time that our wages will be taxed 75p in the Pound or possibly Euro by then
Spot on!!!""""

Actually the amount of money saved in the NHS, Policing anti social behaviour, domestic violencs, crime in general and the cut in road deaths and crashes, lost working days caused by drunkeness etc I would imagine they will have loads of money to spend putting the economy back on its feet, so quite a good idea actually.

Tim Newroman wrote:

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:

The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man wrote:

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Amazing level of ignorance and hypocrisy from the Authorities.
One in 10 smokers in Swindon, smoking illegal (Untaxed) tobacco and the major concern is about the unpaid taxes......
I thought that maybe the authorities would be more concerned about the risks to public health......

Why? If you've freely chosen to put one of these death sticks in your mouth, you've demonstrated that you plainly don't care about your health, so why should the authorities?

A simplistic view, Authorities are paid / elected to serve and protect, this is the fundamental mission of Public Services.
As far as I know, the UK is not yet a Nazi State so we should not expect the Authorities to give certain people with "special treatment" anytime soon, for now we all get treated the same, smokers or not.

Hard to see why you might think 'we all get treated the same' in the UK. That's very clearly not the case. Name any aspect of life you care to mention: taxation, the courts, employment, education, access to benefits... the authorities and the system treats people very differently across the board.

'Certain people' absolutely do get 'special treatment'.

Maybe so.... but certainly not in the NHS, smokers or not, old or young, rich or poor, people will be looked after and treated equally by nurses and staff.
An Institution to be hugely proud of.

Always Grumpy wrote:

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:

The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man wrote:

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Amazing level of ignorance and hypocrisy from the Authorities.
One in 10 smokers in Swindon, smoking illegal (Untaxed) tobacco and the major concern is about the unpaid taxes......
I thought that maybe the authorities would be more concerned about the risks to public health......

Why? If you've freely chosen to put one of these death sticks in your mouth, you've demonstrated that you plainly don't care about your health, so why should the authorities?

A simplistic view, Authorities are paid / elected to serve and protect, this is the fundamental mission of Public Services.
As far as I know, the UK is not yet a Nazi State so we should not expect the Authorities to give certain people with "special treatment" anytime soon, for now we all get treated the same, smokers or not.

You really are a nasty little man, aren't you?
Why is it that every time you dislike or disagree with someone else's opinion you call it simplistic, ignorant or whatever and then go on to compare the UK with the nazis, if their viewpoint doesn't fit your weird little agenda.
Why don't you grow up and face reality and stop spouting your out of date, left wing propaganda.
Propaganda was a hallmark of the nazi regime you know.

There was nothing political in my comment. I simply noted that Authorities are more concerned about unpaid taxes than public health.
You responded that smokers made a choice and should pay the price, implying that obese, drinkers ect...should also forfeit their right to healthcare.....
I disagreed with your view.
As far as healthcare goes, we are all equal and treated the same regardless of the diet, health choice, race, sex, weatlh.
This is no Propaganda, this is a basic human, decent and moral thinking.

@baron-cohen says "As far as healthcare goes, we are all equal and treated the same regardless of the diet, health choice, race, sex, weatlh."
Yes, yet more left wing propaganda. You really are so out of touch with the realities of this world. Life must have been oh so simple where you came from!
You seem to be as bad as the regime you keep referring to.

Always Grumpy wrote:
@baron-cohen says "As far as healthcare goes, we are all equal and treated the same regardless of the diet, health choice, race, sex, weatlh."
Yes, yet more left wing propaganda. You really are so out of touch with the realities of this world. Life must have been oh so simple where you came from!
You seem to be as bad as the regime you keep referring to.

This has nothing to do with leftwing ideas, but everything to do with goodness, decency and humanity.
"I will use treatments for the benefit of the ill in accordance with my ability and my judgment, but from what is to their harm and injustice I will keep them"
"t I will lead my life and practice my art with integrity and honor, using my
power wisely"
"I will honor the Profession of Medicine, be just and generous to its members, and
help sustain them in their service to humanity"
Hippocratic Oath
The above words are 2500 years old, part of the medical code and no Labour didn't exist 2500 years ago, so nothing to do with so called leftwing propaganda

Frankly it is not my problem that you believe in untermenschen and eugenics these are not today's realities, but past fantasies.

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:

Always Grumpy wrote:
@baron-cohen says "As far as healthcare goes, we are all equal and treated the same regardless of the diet, health choice, race, sex, weatlh."
Yes, yet more left wing propaganda. You really are so out of touch with the realities of this world. Life must have been oh so simple where you came from!
You seem to be as bad as the regime you keep referring to.

This has nothing to do with leftwing ideas, but everything to do with goodness, decency and humanity.
"I will use treatments for the benefit of the ill in accordance with my ability and my judgment, but from what is to their harm and injustice I will keep them"
"t I will lead my life and practice my art with integrity and honor, using my
power wisely"
"I will honor the Profession of Medicine, be just and generous to its members, and
help sustain them in their service to humanity"
Hippocratic Oath
The above words are 2500 years old, part of the medical code and no Labour didn't exist 2500 years ago, so nothing to do with so called leftwing propaganda

Frankly it is not my problem that you believe in untermenschen and eugenics these are not today's realities, but past fantasies.

You really are thicker than I thought if you believe in equality. There's never been equality on this planet and never will be, whether it's humans or animals. There will always be sub humans as seen in the papers every day.
What you are spouting is left wing marxist drivel, except you refuse to believe it. It's propaganda trying to get people to believe such rubbish, which puts you on a par with the nazis, even though they were at opposite ends of the political spectrum. You are just as bad and it's got nothing to do with what happened in Greece 2500 years ago - do you honestly think they were all treated equal then?
Oh dear, you really don't have a clue.

This has nothing to do with leftwing ideas, but everything to do with goodness, decency and humanity.

At least you realise that the two things are entirely different and distinct.

untermenschen and eugenics these are not today's realities

This shows how out of touch you are. It may not be the same labels, but the concepts of both are very much a reality of today, more than ever, in many ways.

Always Grumpy wrote:

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:

Always Grumpy wrote:
@baron-cohen says "As far as healthcare goes, we are all equal and treated the same regardless of the diet, health choice, race, sex, weatlh."
Yes, yet more left wing propaganda. You really are so out of touch with the realities of this world. Life must have been oh so simple where you came from!
You seem to be as bad as the regime you keep referring to.

This has nothing to do with leftwing ideas, but everything to do with goodness, decency and humanity.
"I will use treatments for the benefit of the ill in accordance with my ability and my judgment, but from what is to their harm and injustice I will keep them"
"t I will lead my life and practice my art with integrity and honor, using my
power wisely"
"I will honor the Profession of Medicine, be just and generous to its members, and
help sustain them in their service to humanity"
Hippocratic Oath
The above words are 2500 years old, part of the medical code and no Labour didn't exist 2500 years ago, so nothing to do with so called leftwing propaganda

Frankly it is not my problem that you believe in untermenschen and eugenics these are not today's realities, but past fantasies.

You really are thicker than I thought if you believe in equality. There's never been equality on this planet and never will be, whether it's humans or animals. There will always be sub humans as seen in the papers every day.
What you are spouting is left wing marxist drivel, except you refuse to believe it. It's propaganda trying to get people to believe such rubbish, which puts you on a par with the nazis, even though they were at opposite ends of the political spectrum. You are just as bad and it's got nothing to do with what happened in Greece 2500 years ago - do you honestly think they were all treated equal then?
Oh dear, you really don't have a clue.

Well said, spot on.

Tim Newroman wrote:

Always Grumpy wrote:

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:

Always Grumpy wrote:
@baron-cohen says "As far as healthcare goes, we are all equal and treated the same regardless of the diet, health choice, race, sex, weatlh."
Yes, yet more left wing propaganda. You really are so out of touch with the realities of this world. Life must have been oh so simple where you came from!
You seem to be as bad as the regime you keep referring to.

This has nothing to do with leftwing ideas, but everything to do with goodness, decency and humanity.
"I will use treatments for the benefit of the ill in accordance with my ability and my judgment, but from what is to their harm and injustice I will keep them"
"t I will lead my life and practice my art with integrity and honor, using my
power wisely"
"I will honor the Profession of Medicine, be just and generous to its members, and
help sustain them in their service to humanity"
Hippocratic Oath
The above words are 2500 years old, part of the medical code and no Labour didn't exist 2500 years ago, so nothing to do with so called leftwing propaganda

Frankly it is not my problem that you believe in untermenschen and eugenics these are not today's realities, but past fantasies.

You really are thicker than I thought if you believe in equality. There's never been equality on this planet and never will be, whether it's humans or animals. There will always be sub humans as seen in the papers every day.
What you are spouting is left wing marxist drivel, except you refuse to believe it. It's propaganda trying to get people to believe such rubbish, which puts you on a par with the nazis, even though they were at opposite ends of the political spectrum. You are just as bad and it's got nothing to do with what happened in Greece 2500 years ago - do you honestly think they were all treated equal then?
Oh dear, you really don't have a clue.

Well said, spot on.

I quoted the Medical Oath, not Karl Marx or Mein Kampf....
It is a disgrace that in modern day Britain, after all the sacrifices of our forefathers that some individuals like yourselves still believe that not all Human beings are equal.
Men, women, children, black, white, asian, gay or not disabled or able bodies, we are all equals in the eyes of God and the Law, and attempting to prove otherwise would be a grave mistake, you have been warned.

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:

Tim Newroman wrote:

Always Grumpy wrote:

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:

Always Grumpy wrote:
@baron-cohen says "As far as healthcare goes, we are all equal and treated the same regardless of the diet, health choice, race, sex, weatlh."
Yes, yet more left wing propaganda. You really are so out of touch with the realities of this world. Life must have been oh so simple where you came from!
You seem to be as bad as the regime you keep referring to.

This has nothing to do with leftwing ideas, but everything to do with goodness, decency and humanity.
"I will use treatments for the benefit of the ill in accordance with my ability and my judgment, but from what is to their harm and injustice I will keep them"
"t I will lead my life and practice my art with integrity and honor, using my
power wisely"
"I will honor the Profession of Medicine, be just and generous to its members, and
help sustain them in their service to humanity"
Hippocratic Oath
The above words are 2500 years old, part of the medical code and no Labour didn't exist 2500 years ago, so nothing to do with so called leftwing propaganda

Frankly it is not my problem that you believe in untermenschen and eugenics these are not today's realities, but past fantasies.

You really are thicker than I thought if you believe in equality. There's never been equality on this planet and never will be, whether it's humans or animals. There will always be sub humans as seen in the papers every day.
What you are spouting is left wing marxist drivel, except you refuse to believe it. It's propaganda trying to get people to believe such rubbish, which puts you on a par with the nazis, even though they were at opposite ends of the political spectrum. You are just as bad and it's got nothing to do with what happened in Greece 2500 years ago - do you honestly think they were all treated equal then?
Oh dear, you really don't have a clue.

Well said, spot on.

I quoted the Medical Oath, not Karl Marx or Mein Kampf....
It is a disgrace that in modern day Britain, after all the sacrifices of our forefathers that some individuals like yourselves still believe that not all Human beings are equal.
Men, women, children, black, white, asian, gay or not disabled or able bodies, we are all equals in the eyes of God and the Law, and attempting to prove otherwise would be a grave mistake, you have been warned.

Oh dear, you're a god botherer - you're sadder than I thought.
There's no god, so no-one to save you especially. You'll die and rot away or be burnt, the same as me, so I suppose there's some equality in that respect, but that's about all.
The last bit of your ramble sounds like a threat - are you able to back that up?