Swindon AdvertiserTeen refugee takes up fight against racism (From Swindon Advertiser)

Get involved! Send photos, video, news & views. Text SWINDON NEWS to 80360 or email us

Teen refugee takes up fight against racism

Swindon Advertiser: Abdulkareem Musa Adams Buy this photo Abdulkareem Musa Adams

A TEENAGER who fled his homeland after an attack that wiped out his whole family has made a video about his journey to Swindon as part of a campaign to tackle racism against immigrants.

Abdulkareem Musa Adams, 16, was forced to leave his home in Darfur, Sudan, at the age of seven after his parents and sisters were killed in an attack that destroyed his entire village.

Eight years on, Abdul has been granted asylum in the UK and lives with his foster mum Ira Muir in Swindon. The teen now works with Fixers, a youth organisation that empowers young people to tackle difficult issues through creative projects.

Through them he made a film about his struggle – Journey To A Safer Place – as part of a campaign to end prejudice against refugees, asylum seekers and immigrants.

In the video, showcased to students at St Joseph’s Catholic College on Tuesday, Abdul said: “I want to thank the UK for giving safe haven to people like me.

“My life is better now. I have a foster family and I’m learning English and going to college.

“I wish I could still be with my family in Sudan but I am so grateful for the help the UK has given me.”

Abdul and his brother were out herding goats when they first saw the smoke rising from their village. When they returned, everything had been destroyed.

“When the attack first began all we could see were helicopters because we were on the outskirts,” Abdul said.

“Then we saw people on horseback riding into the village and then flames coming out of the houses, and we could hear the sound of guns and bombs.”

The boys travelled for three days on a donkey into neighbouring Chad, where they stayed at a Red Cross refugee camp for 18 months with a couple whose family had also been killed in the attack. But they lost each other during a commotion sparked by fears they may be forced to return to Sudan.

Abdul still searches daily on social networking websites Skype and Facebook for people in Chad, Libya and Sudan who can help him find his brother.

“From that point onwards I feel like I have been on the run,” he said.

“For years now I have been trying to get away from trouble. I felt so hopeless and alone.”

Abdul went on to Libya, where he stayed for three years and got caught up in the uprising against former leader Col Muammar al-Gaddafi. He was sent to jail for refusing to become a child soldier, where he was beaten on a daily basis – at times so badly he was left in hospital. From there made his way to France, where he survived by sheltering in dustbins and on handouts from a local mosque and church.

But, unable to find sanctuary there, Abdul climbed onto the underside of a truck that took him to the UK and finally made his way to Swindon.

There he was helped by The Harbour Project, a charity which provides a safe haven for refugees and asylum seekers.

To find out more about Abdul, contact Fixers by visiting: www.fixers.org.uk. To contact the Harbour Project visit www.harbourproject.org.uk

Comments (31)

Please log in to enable comment sorting

12:49pm Wed 19 Jun 13

Ringer says...

This story is deeply concerning. International law states that asylum seekers must seek asylum in the first safe country they pass through.

Why was Mr 'Adams' not granted asylum in France?


Abdul climbed onto the underside of a truck that took him to the UK and finally made his way to Swindon.


Which, very clearly, makes him an illegal immigrant.
This story is deeply concerning. International law states that asylum seekers must seek asylum in the first safe country they pass through. [p] Why was Mr 'Adams' not granted asylum in France? [p] [quote] Abdul climbed onto the underside of a truck that took him to the UK and finally made his way to Swindon. [/quote] [p] Which, very clearly, makes him an illegal immigrant. Ringer
  • Score: 0

1:21pm Wed 19 Jun 13

house on the hill says...

That could be said of a vast number of immigrants here too! Clearly its our lovely soft welfare system they love.

I am sure this young man does deserve asylum after what he went through, but should it be here.
That could be said of a vast number of immigrants here too! Clearly its our lovely soft welfare system they love. I am sure this young man does deserve asylum after what he went through, but should it be here. house on the hill
  • Score: 0

1:33pm Wed 19 Jun 13

bradley red 1 says...

Ringer wrote:
This story is deeply concerning. International law states that asylum seekers must seek asylum in the first safe country they pass through.

Why was Mr 'Adams' not granted asylum in France?


Abdul climbed onto the underside of a truck that took him to the UK and finally made his way to Swindon.


Which, very clearly, makes him an illegal immigrant.
Agreed! this is why the uk is seen as a " soft touch" this is why there are thousands of asylum seekers all over the country! every tax payer contributes towards the up keep of these poor people who have fled violence, so yes you have to question why did france not provide a home in the first place of call?
[quote][p][bold]Ringer[/bold] wrote: This story is deeply concerning. International law states that asylum seekers must seek asylum in the first safe country they pass through. [p] Why was Mr 'Adams' not granted asylum in France? [p] [quote] Abdul climbed onto the underside of a truck that took him to the UK and finally made his way to Swindon. [/quote] [p] Which, very clearly, makes him an illegal immigrant.[/p][/quote]Agreed! this is why the uk is seen as a " soft touch" this is why there are thousands of asylum seekers all over the country! every tax payer contributes towards the up keep of these poor people who have fled violence, so yes you have to question why did france not provide a home in the first place of call? bradley red 1
  • Score: 0

2:13pm Wed 19 Jun 13

red tattoo says...

abdul..ignore these comments you are such a brave young man, and i think you deserve to be here.
id like to see how many people that are slagging him off go through what he has been through and come out of it a bright genuine young man, so what if we are over stretched in the uk, after what he has been through, dosent he deserve a bit of a better life?
to have his whole childhood ripped apart then to lose his family, he should be being helped not disrespected.
i have been to africa seen children with no shoes, to wear that have to play in dirt, and belive me this isnt no fun for them.
dont give him problems for making a stand....
abdul
i hope you have a great life in the uk and make your family proud, i know they would be.
abdul..ignore these comments you are such a brave young man, and i think you deserve to be here. id like to see how many people that are slagging him off go through what he has been through and come out of it a bright genuine young man, so what if we are over stretched in the uk, after what he has been through, dosent he deserve a bit of a better life? to have his whole childhood ripped apart then to lose his family, he should be being helped not disrespected. i have been to africa seen children with no shoes, to wear that have to play in dirt, and belive me this isnt no fun for them. dont give him problems for making a stand.... abdul i hope you have a great life in the uk and make your family proud, i know they would be. red tattoo
  • Score: 0

2:21pm Wed 19 Jun 13

Ringer says...

house on the hill wrote:
That could be said of a vast number of immigrants here too! Clearly its our lovely soft welfare system they love.

I am sure this young man does deserve asylum after what he went through, but should it be here.
The rather glaring problem is that there are, literally, millions of people across the world - mainly from Africa, Asia and the Middle East - who would absolutely meet the requirements for asylum in the UK.

But, unless anyone forgot, the UK has no money. As a nation, we still have to borrow billions per year just to pay the bills. We cannot possibly hope to accommodate all of those who might feel they have a right to come here. Most of those people will be unable to speak English, will have little or no worthwhile education or skills and will often suffer mental health issues and cultural differences that are simply incompatible with British life.

It is not our fault that certain nations remain in a perpetual state of turmoil, violence and war. Of course nobody wants to see children (or anybody else, for that matter) live in horrific conditions and suffer terrible trauma... but that, unfortunately, is simply normal life for millions of people.

Despite the silly protestations of the Left, and Labour (who basically encourage this nonsense for the votes it gains them), immigrants DO come here because the UK is viewed as disorganised and an easy touch. Our own judiciary frequently rules in a self-defeating manner and interpret Human Rights legislation in ever more bizarre ways. Then, of course, there's our benefit system - which rewards those who come here with homes and money that they could but dream of in their homelands.

Let me be very clear about this: I do not, for one minute, blame the individuals who arrive here. I lay the blame SOLELY at the feet of our government, the Home Office and the Border Agencies.
[quote][p][bold]house on the hill[/bold] wrote: That could be said of a vast number of immigrants here too! Clearly its our lovely soft welfare system they love. I am sure this young man does deserve asylum after what he went through, but should it be here.[/p][/quote]The rather glaring problem is that there are, literally, millions of people across the world - mainly from Africa, Asia and the Middle East - who would absolutely meet the requirements for asylum in the UK. [p] But, unless anyone forgot, the UK has no money. As a nation, we still have to borrow billions per year just to pay the bills. We cannot possibly hope to accommodate all of those who might feel they have a right to come here. Most of those people will be unable to speak English, will have little or no worthwhile education or skills and will often suffer mental health issues and cultural differences that are simply incompatible with British life. [p] It is not our fault that certain nations remain in a perpetual state of turmoil, violence and war. Of course nobody wants to see children (or anybody else, for that matter) live in horrific conditions and suffer terrible trauma... but that, unfortunately, is simply normal life for millions of people. [p] Despite the silly protestations of the Left, and Labour (who basically encourage this nonsense for the votes it gains them), immigrants DO come here because the UK is viewed as disorganised and an easy touch. Our own judiciary frequently rules in a self-defeating manner and interpret Human Rights legislation in ever more bizarre ways. Then, of course, there's our benefit system - which rewards those who come here with homes and money that they could but dream of in their homelands. [p] Let me be very clear about this: I do not, for one minute, blame the individuals who arrive here. I lay the blame SOLELY at the feet of our government, the Home Office and the Border Agencies. Ringer
  • Score: 0

2:41pm Wed 19 Jun 13

Ringer says...

red tattoo wrote:
abdul..ignore these comments you are such a brave young man, and i think you deserve to be here.
id like to see how many people that are slagging him off go through what he has been through and come out of it a bright genuine young man, so what if we are over stretched in the uk, after what he has been through, dosent he deserve a bit of a better life?
to have his whole childhood ripped apart then to lose his family, he should be being helped not disrespected.
i have been to africa seen children with no shoes, to wear that have to play in dirt, and belive me this isnt no fun for them.
dont give him problems for making a stand....
abdul
i hope you have a great life in the uk and make your family proud, i know they would be.
Overly emotive nonsense.

Nobody, but nobody, has 'slagged' this man off. Do you think it's 'brave' to enter the UK illegally? Really?


i think you deserve to be here.


Why? Seriously. Think about it. Why? What about all the other children you saw in Africa, don't they 'deserve' to be here too?

It would be interesting to know why his asylum application in France was rejected.
[quote][p][bold]red tattoo[/bold] wrote: abdul..ignore these comments you are such a brave young man, and i think you deserve to be here. id like to see how many people that are slagging him off go through what he has been through and come out of it a bright genuine young man, so what if we are over stretched in the uk, after what he has been through, dosent he deserve a bit of a better life? to have his whole childhood ripped apart then to lose his family, he should be being helped not disrespected. i have been to africa seen children with no shoes, to wear that have to play in dirt, and belive me this isnt no fun for them. dont give him problems for making a stand.... abdul i hope you have a great life in the uk and make your family proud, i know they would be.[/p][/quote]Overly emotive nonsense. [p] Nobody, but nobody, has 'slagged' this man off. Do you think it's 'brave' to enter the UK illegally? Really? [p] [quote] i think you deserve to be here. [/quote] [p] Why? Seriously. Think about it. Why? What about all the other children you saw in Africa, don't they 'deserve' to be here too? [p] It would be interesting to know why his asylum application in France was rejected. Ringer
  • Score: 0

3:53pm Wed 19 Jun 13

Hmmmf says...

The UK is, of course, the only 'safe' country in the world. Everybody knows that.
The UK is, of course, the only 'safe' country in the world. Everybody knows that. Hmmmf
  • Score: 0

11:35pm Wed 19 Jun 13

moonraker says...

Illegal Immigrant - deport him immediately.
Illegal Immigrant - deport him immediately. moonraker
  • Score: 0

10:02am Thu 20 Jun 13

benzss says...

Wow, the Daily Mail reading little Englanders are out in force today!

This guy is a clear example of how immigration is a net gain for a country, not just economically, but also culturally. I imagine he has some fascinating - if morbid - stories to tell, and with the right encouragement could make more films like this. Well done him.

I find it interesting, however, that the sort of person who whinges about 'immigrants' and 'asylum seekers' assumes two things:

1) All immigrants and asylum seekers go to a country only to live on benefits (time and again it is shown that immigration provides a net economic benefit to a country).

2) That somehow white natives are more deserving of welfare than brown foreigners. What a disgraceful view. If we're going to be draconinan and vaguely fascist about this, let's kick out millions of lazy white people who contribute little or nothing to their community. Then we'll have room for hard-working unfortunates who have experienced horrors that most of the Daily Mail brigade cannot even imagine. This bloke, who's 16, will value his education far more than your average native ingrate.

Good on you, Abdul.
Wow, the Daily Mail reading little Englanders are out in force today! This guy is a clear example of how immigration is a net gain for a country, not just economically, but also culturally. I imagine he has some fascinating - if morbid - stories to tell, and with the right encouragement could make more films like this. Well done him. I find it interesting, however, that the sort of person who whinges about 'immigrants' and 'asylum seekers' assumes two things: 1) All immigrants and asylum seekers go to a country only to live on benefits (time and again it is shown that immigration provides a net economic benefit to a country). 2) That somehow white natives are more deserving of welfare than brown foreigners. What a disgraceful view. If we're going to be draconinan and vaguely fascist about this, let's kick out millions of lazy white people who contribute little or nothing to their community. Then we'll have room for hard-working unfortunates who have experienced horrors that most of the Daily Mail brigade cannot even imagine. This bloke, who's 16, will value his education far more than your average native ingrate. Good on you, Abdul. benzss
  • Score: 0

10:37am Thu 20 Jun 13

Always Grumpy says...

benzss wrote:
Wow, the Daily Mail reading little Englanders are out in force today!

This guy is a clear example of how immigration is a net gain for a country, not just economically, but also culturally. I imagine he has some fascinating - if morbid - stories to tell, and with the right encouragement could make more films like this. Well done him.

I find it interesting, however, that the sort of person who whinges about 'immigrants' and 'asylum seekers' assumes two things:

1) All immigrants and asylum seekers go to a country only to live on benefits (time and again it is shown that immigration provides a net economic benefit to a country).

2) That somehow white natives are more deserving of welfare than brown foreigners. What a disgraceful view. If we're going to be draconinan and vaguely fascist about this, let's kick out millions of lazy white people who contribute little or nothing to their community. Then we'll have room for hard-working unfortunates who have experienced horrors that most of the Daily Mail brigade cannot even imagine. This bloke, who's 16, will value his education far more than your average native ingrate.

Good on you, Abdul.
It's not an example of how immigration benefits this country at all, it merely indicates what a soft touch the UK is.
Try answering the question as to why this illegal immigrant didn't claim asylum in the first European country he landed in? No answer for that?
As to kicking out you're so called 'millions' of lazy white people (you no doubt have detailed evidence for this I assume), these people you refer to aren't illegal immigrants, they are in their own country.
If you're so keen on these people why don't you jet off to Sudan or wherever and help them in their own country? That would be much more beneficial than them pouring into this country illegally.
Typical rant from a typical left wing Guardian reader.
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: Wow, the Daily Mail reading little Englanders are out in force today! This guy is a clear example of how immigration is a net gain for a country, not just economically, but also culturally. I imagine he has some fascinating - if morbid - stories to tell, and with the right encouragement could make more films like this. Well done him. I find it interesting, however, that the sort of person who whinges about 'immigrants' and 'asylum seekers' assumes two things: 1) All immigrants and asylum seekers go to a country only to live on benefits (time and again it is shown that immigration provides a net economic benefit to a country). 2) That somehow white natives are more deserving of welfare than brown foreigners. What a disgraceful view. If we're going to be draconinan and vaguely fascist about this, let's kick out millions of lazy white people who contribute little or nothing to their community. Then we'll have room for hard-working unfortunates who have experienced horrors that most of the Daily Mail brigade cannot even imagine. This bloke, who's 16, will value his education far more than your average native ingrate. Good on you, Abdul.[/p][/quote]It's not an example of how immigration benefits this country at all, it merely indicates what a soft touch the UK is. Try answering the question as to why this illegal immigrant didn't claim asylum in the first European country he landed in? No answer for that? As to kicking out you're so called 'millions' of lazy white people (you no doubt have detailed evidence for this I assume), these people you refer to aren't illegal immigrants, they are in their own country. If you're so keen on these people why don't you jet off to Sudan or wherever and help them in their own country? That would be much more beneficial than them pouring into this country illegally. Typical rant from a typical left wing Guardian reader. Always Grumpy
  • Score: 0

11:02am Thu 20 Jun 13

benzss says...

Always Grumpy wrote:
benzss wrote:
Wow, the Daily Mail reading little Englanders are out in force today!

This guy is a clear example of how immigration is a net gain for a country, not just economically, but also culturally. I imagine he has some fascinating - if morbid - stories to tell, and with the right encouragement could make more films like this. Well done him.

I find it interesting, however, that the sort of person who whinges about 'immigrants' and 'asylum seekers' assumes two things:

1) All immigrants and asylum seekers go to a country only to live on benefits (time and again it is shown that immigration provides a net economic benefit to a country).

2) That somehow white natives are more deserving of welfare than brown foreigners. What a disgraceful view. If we're going to be draconinan and vaguely fascist about this, let's kick out millions of lazy white people who contribute little or nothing to their community. Then we'll have room for hard-working unfortunates who have experienced horrors that most of the Daily Mail brigade cannot even imagine. This bloke, who's 16, will value his education far more than your average native ingrate.

Good on you, Abdul.
It's not an example of how immigration benefits this country at all, it merely indicates what a soft touch the UK is.
Try answering the question as to why this illegal immigrant didn't claim asylum in the first European country he landed in? No answer for that?
As to kicking out you're so called 'millions' of lazy white people (you no doubt have detailed evidence for this I assume), these people you refer to aren't illegal immigrants, they are in their own country.
If you're so keen on these people why don't you jet off to Sudan or wherever and help them in their own country? That would be much more beneficial than them pouring into this country illegally.
Typical rant from a typical left wing Guardian reader.
"these people you refer to aren't illegal immigrants, they are in their own country."

This is my point. You're quite happy to elevate tribalism above concepts like merit, ethics or basic humanity. Why exactly are native people more important than non-native people? The only explanation is ingroup/outgroup primitivism. I do hope that one day we live in a world where such divisions don't exist. It's hardly likely, but it's worth striving for, in my view.

"If you're so keen on these people why don't you jet off to Sudan or wherever and help them in their own country?"

No chance. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

"It's not an example of how immigration benefits this country at all, it merely indicates what a soft touch the UK is."

The UK takes in the most asylum seekers in the EU, about the same as Germany, and about the same as the US (not in the EU, but it's a good comparison). France takes about half the amount of the average of these three countries. I do not know why.

When comparing to GDP, the UK takes relatively few asylum seekers, however; eastern and central European countries take the hit on that.

Immigration wise overall, the UK is pretty average though. Nothing special to report.

So basically very little to moan about.
[quote][p][bold]Always Grumpy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: Wow, the Daily Mail reading little Englanders are out in force today! This guy is a clear example of how immigration is a net gain for a country, not just economically, but also culturally. I imagine he has some fascinating - if morbid - stories to tell, and with the right encouragement could make more films like this. Well done him. I find it interesting, however, that the sort of person who whinges about 'immigrants' and 'asylum seekers' assumes two things: 1) All immigrants and asylum seekers go to a country only to live on benefits (time and again it is shown that immigration provides a net economic benefit to a country). 2) That somehow white natives are more deserving of welfare than brown foreigners. What a disgraceful view. If we're going to be draconinan and vaguely fascist about this, let's kick out millions of lazy white people who contribute little or nothing to their community. Then we'll have room for hard-working unfortunates who have experienced horrors that most of the Daily Mail brigade cannot even imagine. This bloke, who's 16, will value his education far more than your average native ingrate. Good on you, Abdul.[/p][/quote]It's not an example of how immigration benefits this country at all, it merely indicates what a soft touch the UK is. Try answering the question as to why this illegal immigrant didn't claim asylum in the first European country he landed in? No answer for that? As to kicking out you're so called 'millions' of lazy white people (you no doubt have detailed evidence for this I assume), these people you refer to aren't illegal immigrants, they are in their own country. If you're so keen on these people why don't you jet off to Sudan or wherever and help them in their own country? That would be much more beneficial than them pouring into this country illegally. Typical rant from a typical left wing Guardian reader.[/p][/quote]"these people you refer to aren't illegal immigrants, they are in their own country." This is my point. You're quite happy to elevate tribalism above concepts like merit, ethics or basic humanity. Why exactly are native people more important than non-native people? The only explanation is ingroup/outgroup primitivism. I do hope that one day we live in a world where such divisions don't exist. It's hardly likely, but it's worth striving for, in my view. "If you're so keen on these people why don't you jet off to Sudan or wherever and help them in their own country?" No chance. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. "It's not an example of how immigration benefits this country at all, it merely indicates what a soft touch the UK is." The UK takes in the most asylum seekers in the EU, about the same as Germany, and about the same as the US (not in the EU, but it's a good comparison). France takes about half the amount of the average of these three countries. I do not know why. When comparing to GDP, the UK takes relatively few asylum seekers, however; eastern and central European countries take the hit on that. Immigration wise overall, the UK is pretty average though. Nothing special to report. So basically very little to moan about. benzss
  • Score: 0

11:08am Thu 20 Jun 13

Ringer says...

@benzss: leaving aside the fact that I'm sure most of your post above must be parody, I'm interested to know why you seem to think that concern about illegal immigration is something that applies only to 'Daily Mail readers'?

By the way, the reality is that immigration has been proven to have been of 'little or no economic benefit' to the UK. It's only Labour and the left who continually talk about the 'benefits of immigration', without having any facts to back up the claim.

Typically, for a leftie, you then play the 'racist' card. Racism has nothing to do with the belief that the indiginous population should have greater entitlement to the UK's welfare system than those who've never contributed a penny and have only just arrived here.

The rest of your post is wild speculation, to a rather farcical level. How is it 'culturally enriching' to hear about how pitifully backward and violent Dafur is?
@benzss: leaving aside the fact that I'm sure most of your post above must be parody, I'm interested to know why you seem to think that concern about illegal immigration is something that applies only to 'Daily Mail readers'? [p] By the way, the reality is that immigration has been proven to have been of 'little or no economic benefit' to the UK. It's only Labour and the left who continually talk about the 'benefits of immigration', without having any facts to back up the claim. [p] Typically, for a leftie, you then play the 'racist' card. Racism has nothing to do with the belief that the indiginous population should have greater entitlement to the UK's welfare system than those who've never contributed a penny and have only just arrived here. [p] The rest of your post is wild speculation, to a rather farcical level. How is it 'culturally enriching' to hear about how pitifully backward and violent Dafur is? Ringer
  • Score: 0

11:45am Thu 20 Jun 13

benzss says...

It isn't as if there is a dearth of immigrant poets, musicians, filmmakers, scientists, philosophers, etc. It's always culturally enriching to hear about something beyond the usual confines of your world.

"Racism has nothing to do with the belief that the indiginous population should have greater entitlement to the UK's welfare system than those who've never contributed a penny and have only just arrived here."

It sounds implicitly so to me; although perhaps it could be downgraded to 'nationalist'. 'National exceptionalism', let's say. It's a common thing in all countries, so don't feel too bad. I'm sure you feel the same antipathy towards brown people from Africa as white people from Eastern Europe. My point is that it's an intellectually baseless view. There is nothing about the so-called 'indigenous' population that is better or more deserving than anybody else. It really is just ingroup/outgroup primitivism that one day we'll all grow out of.

The economic argument is favour of immigration is well-established. This article refers mostly to the US, but the principles apply to most developed countries: http://business.time
.com/2013/01/30/the-
economics-of-immigra
tion-who-wins-who-lo
ses-and-why/
It isn't as if there is a dearth of immigrant poets, musicians, filmmakers, scientists, philosophers, etc. It's always culturally enriching to hear about something beyond the usual confines of your world. "Racism has nothing to do with the belief that the indiginous [sic] population should have greater entitlement to the UK's welfare system than those who've never contributed a penny and have only just arrived here." It sounds implicitly so to me; although perhaps it could be downgraded to 'nationalist'. 'National exceptionalism', let's say. It's a common thing in all countries, so don't feel too bad. I'm sure you feel the same antipathy towards brown people from Africa as white people from Eastern Europe. My point is that it's an intellectually baseless view. There is nothing about the so-called 'indigenous' population that is better or more deserving than anybody else. It really is just ingroup/outgroup primitivism that one day we'll all grow out of. The economic argument is favour of immigration is well-established. This article refers mostly to the US, but the principles apply to most developed countries: http://business.time .com/2013/01/30/the- economics-of-immigra tion-who-wins-who-lo ses-and-why/ benzss
  • Score: 0

12:21pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Always Grumpy says...

"It isn't as if there is a dearth of immigrant poets, musicians, filmmakers, scientists, philosophers, etc. It's always culturally enriching to hear about something beyond the usual confines of your world."
Fine if you like that sort of thing, but let's hear it from their OWN country, NOT mine.
Bye the way, you sound just like baren-cohen/poliprat
! Yet another name change?
You're bashing away at a well worn argument that has failed miserably time and time again and sounds unlikely to succeed this time as well.
"It isn't as if there is a dearth of immigrant poets, musicians, filmmakers, scientists, philosophers, etc. It's always culturally enriching to hear about something beyond the usual confines of your world." Fine if you like that sort of thing, but let's hear it from their OWN country, NOT mine. Bye the way, you sound just like baren-cohen/poliprat ! Yet another name change? You're bashing away at a well worn argument that has failed miserably time and time again and sounds unlikely to succeed this time as well. Always Grumpy
  • Score: 0

12:28pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Hmmmf says...

"France takes about half the amount of the average of these three countries. I do not know why."

Presumably because, as this formerly illegal immigrant has told us, in France the illegals are obliged to shelter in dustbins and subsist on handouts from mosques. There's also the whole Toubon Law thing going on there, and the requirement for French language skills.

The thing about 'cultural enrichment' is, I'd like to have a choice. I'd like to choose to visit other countries in order to enjoy their culture, not have it imposed upon me in my own, and certainly not at my own expense. I daresay our leaders will soon be adding Bulgarian to the list of languages all our official forms will be available in, and providing the necessary translators.
"France takes about half the amount of the average of these three countries. I do not know why." Presumably because, as this formerly illegal immigrant has told us, in France the illegals are obliged to shelter in dustbins and subsist on handouts from mosques. There's also the whole Toubon Law thing going on there, and the requirement for French language skills. The thing about 'cultural enrichment' is, I'd like to have a choice. I'd like to choose to visit other countries in order to enjoy their culture, not have it imposed upon me in my own, and certainly not at my own expense. I daresay our leaders will soon be adding Bulgarian to the list of languages all our official forms will be available in, and providing the necessary translators. Hmmmf
  • Score: 0

1:14pm Thu 20 Jun 13

benzss says...

Always Grumpy wrote:
"It isn't as if there is a dearth of immigrant poets, musicians, filmmakers, scientists, philosophers, etc. It's always culturally enriching to hear about something beyond the usual confines of your world."
Fine if you like that sort of thing, but let's hear it from their OWN country, NOT mine.
Bye the way, you sound just like baren-cohen/poliprat

! Yet another name change?
You're bashing away at a well worn argument that has failed miserably time and time again and sounds unlikely to succeed this time as well.
Please don't drag me in to your petty 'oh I *know* who you are really!' flame wars. I'm not interested.

In any case, you're not obliged to pay attention to immigrants if you don't want to. It seems to me as if British culture, for what it is, is intricately linked with our former colonies and the movement of peoples back and forth, one country influencing another and vice versa. It's one decent thing to be proud of in a country, even if further back our history is a little darker.

In what sense has this 'well worn argument...failed miserably', exactly?

Again, all I'm hearing is 'if people aren't in my ingroup, they can stay out'. Which is not rational.
[quote][p][bold]Always Grumpy[/bold] wrote: "It isn't as if there is a dearth of immigrant poets, musicians, filmmakers, scientists, philosophers, etc. It's always culturally enriching to hear about something beyond the usual confines of your world." Fine if you like that sort of thing, but let's hear it from their OWN country, NOT mine. Bye the way, you sound just like baren-cohen/poliprat ! Yet another name change? You're bashing away at a well worn argument that has failed miserably time and time again and sounds unlikely to succeed this time as well.[/p][/quote]Please don't drag me in to your petty 'oh I *know* who you are really!' flame wars. I'm not interested. In any case, you're not obliged to pay attention to immigrants if you don't want to. It seems to me as if British culture, for what it is, is intricately linked with our former colonies and the movement of peoples back and forth, one country influencing another and vice versa. It's one decent thing to be proud of in a country, even if further back our history is a little darker. In what sense has this 'well worn argument...failed miserably', exactly? Again, all I'm hearing is 'if people aren't in my ingroup, they can stay out'. Which is not rational. benzss
  • Score: 0

1:50pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Ringer says...

@benzss: you appear to be suggesting that the UK welfare state system is (or should be) equally applicable to anyone from any other country in the world. Patently, that is a rather odd view to take.

Unless, of course, you feel it would be acceptable for me to go to, say, Angola, take as many of their diamonds as I'm able to mine and then bring them home. After all, they're no more entitled to them than I am. We should apply the same theory to oil in the Middle East, after all, why do they have any more right to it than us?

By the way, you are categorically WRONG about applying the USA's migration economic figures to other countries, they absolutely do NOT apply in the same way, at all.

Even a quick search on Google will tell you the economic downsides that migration has had for countries such as Italy, France and Spain.

As I said before, but which you're desperately trying to overlook, the most in-depth, recent research in the UK came to this conclusion:


In their report, The Economic Impact of Immigration, the House of Lords committee found that record levels of immigration have had "little or no impact" on the economic well-being of Britons.

It says competition from immigrants has had a negative impact on the low paid and training for young UK workers, and has contributed to high house prices.

The Lords Economic Affairs Committee, whose members include two ex-chancellors and other Cabinet members, took eight months to consider government immigration policies.

Inquiry chairman Lord Wakeham said: "Looking to the future, if you have got that increase in numbers and you haven't got any economic benefit from it, you have got to ask yourself, is that a wise thing to do?


You'd better start championing the more nebulous 'cultural enhancements' side of things, because there's no economic benefit.

And let's not even start looking at the associated increase in crime...
@benzss: you appear to be suggesting that the UK welfare state system is (or should be) equally applicable to anyone from any other country in the world. Patently, that is a rather odd view to take. [p] Unless, of course, you feel it would be acceptable for me to go to, say, Angola, take as many of their diamonds as I'm able to mine and then bring them home. After all, they're no more entitled to them than I am. We should apply the same theory to oil in the Middle East, after all, why do they have any more right to it than us? [p] By the way, you are categorically WRONG about applying the USA's migration economic figures to other countries, they absolutely do NOT apply in the same way, at all. [p] Even a quick search on Google will tell you the economic downsides that migration has had for countries such as Italy, France and Spain. [p] As I said before, but which you're desperately trying to overlook, the most in-depth, recent research in the UK came to this conclusion: [p] [quote] In their report, The Economic Impact of Immigration, the House of Lords committee found that record levels of immigration have had "little or no impact" on the economic well-being of Britons. [p] It says competition from immigrants has had a negative impact on the low paid and training for young UK workers, and has contributed to high house prices. [p] The Lords Economic Affairs Committee, whose members include two ex-chancellors and other Cabinet members, took eight months to consider government immigration policies. [p] Inquiry chairman Lord Wakeham said: "Looking to the future, if you have got that increase in numbers and you haven't got any economic benefit from it, you have got to ask yourself, is that a wise thing to do? [/quote] [p] You'd better start championing the more nebulous 'cultural enhancements' side of things, because there's no economic benefit. [p] And let's not even start looking at the associated increase in crime... Ringer
  • Score: 0

1:57pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Always Grumpy says...

benzss wrote:
Always Grumpy wrote:
"It isn't as if there is a dearth of immigrant poets, musicians, filmmakers, scientists, philosophers, etc. It's always culturally enriching to hear about something beyond the usual confines of your world."
Fine if you like that sort of thing, but let's hear it from their OWN country, NOT mine.
Bye the way, you sound just like baren-cohen/poliprat


! Yet another name change?
You're bashing away at a well worn argument that has failed miserably time and time again and sounds unlikely to succeed this time as well.
Please don't drag me in to your petty 'oh I *know* who you are really!' flame wars. I'm not interested.

In any case, you're not obliged to pay attention to immigrants if you don't want to. It seems to me as if British culture, for what it is, is intricately linked with our former colonies and the movement of peoples back and forth, one country influencing another and vice versa. It's one decent thing to be proud of in a country, even if further back our history is a little darker.

In what sense has this 'well worn argument...failed miserably', exactly?

Again, all I'm hearing is 'if people aren't in my ingroup, they can stay out'. Which is not rational.
How can anyone ignore immigrants, we're surrounded by them. You must be blind if you can't see them on every corner in the town centre, on nearly every news bulletin.
As to your argument about the benefits of immigration, that's a myth spread by your left wing comrades and the politically correct lobby. They are a massive drain on this country both socially and economically and we could well do without them and their lame supporters, such as yourself. They contribute very little other than their desperate efforts to spread their vile religious views, disease, crime and scrounging off the state.
And yes, you do sound just like the ever odious poliprat.
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Always Grumpy[/bold] wrote: "It isn't as if there is a dearth of immigrant poets, musicians, filmmakers, scientists, philosophers, etc. It's always culturally enriching to hear about something beyond the usual confines of your world." Fine if you like that sort of thing, but let's hear it from their OWN country, NOT mine. Bye the way, you sound just like baren-cohen/poliprat ! Yet another name change? You're bashing away at a well worn argument that has failed miserably time and time again and sounds unlikely to succeed this time as well.[/p][/quote]Please don't drag me in to your petty 'oh I *know* who you are really!' flame wars. I'm not interested. In any case, you're not obliged to pay attention to immigrants if you don't want to. It seems to me as if British culture, for what it is, is intricately linked with our former colonies and the movement of peoples back and forth, one country influencing another and vice versa. It's one decent thing to be proud of in a country, even if further back our history is a little darker. In what sense has this 'well worn argument...failed miserably', exactly? Again, all I'm hearing is 'if people aren't in my ingroup, they can stay out'. Which is not rational.[/p][/quote]How can anyone ignore immigrants, we're surrounded by them. You must be blind if you can't see them on every corner in the town centre, on nearly every news bulletin. As to your argument about the benefits of immigration, that's a myth spread by your left wing comrades and the politically correct lobby. They are a massive drain on this country both socially and economically and we could well do without them and their lame supporters, such as yourself. They contribute very little other than their desperate efforts to spread their vile religious views, disease, crime and scrounging off the state. And yes, you do sound just like the ever odious poliprat. Always Grumpy
  • Score: 0

2:05pm Thu 20 Jun 13

benzss says...

http://www.cream-mig
ration.org/publ_uplo
ads/CDP_18_09.pdf

Check it out.

And in answer to your other questions: why indeed?
http://www.cream-mig ration.org/publ_uplo ads/CDP_18_09.pdf Check it out. And in answer to your other questions: why indeed? benzss
  • Score: 0

2:23pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Ringer says...

benzss wrote:
http://www.cream-mig

ration.org/publ_uplo

ads/CDP_18_09.pdf

Check it out.

And in answer to your other questions: why indeed?
Er, the 'paper' you link to only assess the impact of immigrants from Eastern European countries that joined the EU in May 2004 (the A8 countries).

Please refer to the House of Lords select committee report, which clearly states - regarding ALL immigration to the UK:


record levels of immigration have had "little or no impact" on the economic well-being of Britons.


Squirm all you may like, but there's no getting away from the actual reality. Immigration has presented little or no economic benefit to the UK. Unfortunately, it has brought plenty of association downsides. Crime, the inability of public services to cope with increased demand, lack of jobs, lack of housing... and on and on.
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: http://www.cream-mig ration.org/publ_uplo ads/CDP_18_09.pdf Check it out. And in answer to your other questions: why indeed?[/p][/quote]Er, the 'paper' you link to only assess the impact of immigrants from Eastern European countries that joined the EU in May 2004 (the A8 countries). [p] Please refer to the House of Lords select committee report, which clearly states - regarding ALL immigration to the UK: [p] [quote] record levels of immigration have had "little or no impact" on the economic well-being of Britons. [/quote] [p] Squirm all you may like, but there's no getting away from the actual reality. Immigration has presented little or no economic benefit to the UK. Unfortunately, it has brought plenty of association downsides. Crime, the inability of public services to cope with increased demand, lack of jobs, lack of housing... and on and on. Ringer
  • Score: 0

2:52pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Hmmmf says...

benzss wrote:
Again, all I'm hearing is 'if people aren't in my ingroup, they can stay out'. Which is not rational.

Kindly explain immigrant ghettos. Rational? The word 'ghetto' was invented for immigrants. If you don't know what one is, take a walk down Manchester Road. Rational? Trying to use 'tribalism' as an accusation akin to racism is pretty weak.

You seem rather fond of the USA. The USA is perhaps the world's single biggest and longest-lived (and arguably failed) experiment in multiculturalism. How's that working out in all those 'little Italys', 'Chinatowns', 'Latin quarters', 'African-American Ghettos', 'Jewish Lower East Sides', 'Puerto Rican East Harlems', 'Polish Hill Pittsburghs' to name but a few? And you call people who oppose unfettered immigration 'tribalist'?
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: Again, all I'm hearing is 'if people aren't in my ingroup, they can stay out'. Which is not rational. [/quote] Kindly explain immigrant ghettos. Rational? The word 'ghetto' was invented for immigrants. If you don't know what one is, take a walk down Manchester Road. Rational? Trying to use 'tribalism' as an accusation akin to racism is pretty weak. You seem rather fond of the USA. The USA is perhaps the world's single biggest and longest-lived (and arguably failed) experiment in multiculturalism. How's that working out in all those 'little Italys', 'Chinatowns', 'Latin quarters', 'African-American Ghettos', 'Jewish Lower East Sides', 'Puerto Rican East Harlems', 'Polish Hill Pittsburghs' to name but a few? And you call people who oppose unfettered immigration 'tribalist'? Hmmmf
  • Score: 0

6:43pm Thu 20 Jun 13

tucker81 says...

Have we deported this illegal scumbag yet?
Have we deported this illegal scumbag yet? tucker81
  • Score: 0

9:34pm Thu 20 Jun 13

semitonic says...

Compare this extremely unfortunate chap to the kind of indigenous аrsehole with a tattooed neck queuing up at the rear of Boots for a shot of methadone (that you and I pay for) before skulking around the town center waiting for the sun to go down so he can go out and burgle the neighbourhood.

I know who I'd rather have on the streets.
Compare this extremely unfortunate chap to the kind of indigenous аrsehole with a tattooed neck queuing up at the rear of Boots for a shot of methadone (that you and I pay for) before skulking around the town center waiting for the sun to go down so he can go out and burgle the neighbourhood. I know who I'd rather have on the streets. semitonic
  • Score: 0

8:44am Fri 21 Jun 13

Ringer says...

semitonic wrote:
Compare this extremely unfortunate chap to the kind of indigenous аrsehole with a tattooed neck queuing up at the rear of Boots for a shot of methadone (that you and I pay for) before skulking around the town center waiting for the sun to go down so he can go out and burgle the neighbourhood.

I know who I'd rather have on the streets.
And then compare the 'indigenous аrsehole' with the Somali immigrant up in a UK court for raping his third British victim.

I know who I'd rather have on the streets / in the country.
[quote][p][bold]semitonic[/bold] wrote: Compare this extremely unfortunate chap to the kind of indigenous аrsehole with a tattooed neck queuing up at the rear of Boots for a shot of methadone (that you and I pay for) before skulking around the town center waiting for the sun to go down so he can go out and burgle the neighbourhood. I know who I'd rather have on the streets.[/p][/quote]And then compare the 'indigenous аrsehole' with the Somali immigrant up in a UK court for raping his third British victim. [p] I know who I'd rather have on the streets / in the country. Ringer
  • Score: 0

8:49am Fri 21 Jun 13

benzss says...

Hmmmf wrote:
benzss wrote:
Again, all I'm hearing is 'if people aren't in my ingroup, they can stay out'. Which is not rational.

Kindly explain immigrant ghettos. Rational? The word 'ghetto' was invented for immigrants. If you don't know what one is, take a walk down Manchester Road. Rational? Trying to use 'tribalism' as an accusation akin to racism is pretty weak.

You seem rather fond of the USA. The USA is perhaps the world's single biggest and longest-lived (and arguably failed) experiment in multiculturalism. How's that working out in all those 'little Italys', 'Chinatowns', 'Latin quarters', 'African-American Ghettos', 'Jewish Lower East Sides', 'Puerto Rican East Harlems', 'Polish Hill Pittsburghs' to name but a few? And you call people who oppose unfettered immigration 'tribalist'?
You mean the kind of thing created by extreme poverty? Yeah, it's a **** shame. Like those favelas, which are usually not stocked with immigrants. Ghettos, favelas, shanty towns, et al, are not always or even typically full of immigrants... even in this country.

The US was famously founded by immigrants and for immigrants. It's pretty prosperous as it goes, but with its own problems, some of which have been exacerbated by decades of rampant stupidity (violent discrimination against chinese in California, racial segregation, protestant domination over catholics, blah blah). It's quite interesting really, as the US's culture IS multicultural by definition; that's how it started and that's how it is now. It's one of the charms of the place, I suppose. In any case, the US is hardly akin to Europe, given that as a country it is only, what, 237 years old, and its population explosion occurred at most a century and a half ago*.

I'm not using tribalism as a synonym for racist. As I said, most of the little Englander brigade are just as prejudiced against white immigrants as those of any other colour, nationality or creed. That's just straight tribalism, not necessary racism, i.e. the idea that your tribe is more deserving and superior than the next one, for no good reason.


*before anybody says it, no, that isn't going to happen to Europe.
[quote][p][bold]Hmmmf[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: Again, all I'm hearing is 'if people aren't in my ingroup, they can stay out'. Which is not rational. [/quote] Kindly explain immigrant ghettos. Rational? The word 'ghetto' was invented for immigrants. If you don't know what one is, take a walk down Manchester Road. Rational? Trying to use 'tribalism' as an accusation akin to racism is pretty weak. You seem rather fond of the USA. The USA is perhaps the world's single biggest and longest-lived (and arguably failed) experiment in multiculturalism. How's that working out in all those 'little Italys', 'Chinatowns', 'Latin quarters', 'African-American Ghettos', 'Jewish Lower East Sides', 'Puerto Rican East Harlems', 'Polish Hill Pittsburghs' to name but a few? And you call people who oppose unfettered immigration 'tribalist'?[/p][/quote]You mean the kind of thing created by extreme poverty? Yeah, it's a **** shame. Like those favelas, which are usually not stocked with immigrants. Ghettos, favelas, shanty towns, et al, are not always or even typically full of immigrants... even in this country. The US was famously founded by immigrants and for immigrants. It's pretty prosperous as it goes, but with its own problems, some of which have been exacerbated by decades of rampant stupidity (violent discrimination against chinese in California, racial segregation, protestant domination over catholics, blah blah). It's quite interesting really, as the US's culture IS multicultural by definition; that's how it started and that's how it is now. It's one of the charms of the place, I suppose. In any case, the US is hardly akin to Europe, given that as a country it is only, what, 237 years old, and its population explosion occurred at most a century and a half ago*. I'm not using tribalism as a synonym for racist. As I said, most of the little Englander brigade are just as prejudiced against white immigrants as those of any other colour, nationality or creed. That's just straight tribalism, not necessary racism, i.e. the idea that your tribe is more deserving and superior than the next one, for no good reason. *before anybody says it, no, that isn't going to happen to Europe. benzss
  • Score: 0

11:11am Fri 21 Jun 13

Ringer says...

@benzss: you may find the following reasearch findings of interest. Or, more likely, you'll simply pretend it doesn't exist:


The World Value Survey measured the social attitudes of people in 80 different countries.

The survey asked individuals what types of people they would refuse to live next to, and counted how many chose the option 'people of a different race' as a percentage
for each country.

Societies where more people do not want neighbours from other races can be considered less racially tolerant.

The most racist nations were found to be (in order of least racial tolerance):

India, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Vietnam, Indonesia, South Korea, France, Turkey, Bulgaria, Algeria

The least racist nations were found to be (in order of greatest racial tolerance):

United States, Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Guatemala, Britain, Sweden, Norway, Latvia, Australia, New Zealand


Also, the idea that most nations are made up of immigrants is a very specious argument. The accepted definition of an indigenous person is one who has a grandfather, grandmother and mother and father who were all born in to the same country as their place of birth or their nationality. That being the case, it's daft to continually go on about how the US and the UK are immigrant nations.

Everyone outside of one African nation is technically a *descendant* of immigrants, but that does not make us all immigrants.
@benzss: you may find the following reasearch findings of interest. Or, more likely, you'll simply pretend it doesn't exist: [p] [quote] The World Value Survey measured the social attitudes of people in 80 different countries. [p] The survey asked individuals what types of people they would refuse to live next to, and counted how many chose the option 'people of a different race' as a percentage for each country. [p] Societies where more people do not want neighbours from other races can be considered less racially tolerant. [p] The most racist nations were found to be (in order of least racial tolerance): [p] India, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Vietnam, Indonesia, South Korea, France, Turkey, Bulgaria, Algeria [p] The least racist nations were found to be (in order of greatest racial tolerance): [p] United States, Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Guatemala, Britain, Sweden, Norway, Latvia, Australia, New Zealand [/quote] [p] Also, the idea that most nations are made up of immigrants is a very specious argument. The accepted definition of an indigenous person is one who has a grandfather, grandmother and mother and father who were all born in to the same country as their place of birth or their nationality. That being the case, it's daft to continually go on about how the US and the UK are immigrant nations. [p] Everyone outside of one African nation is technically a *descendant* of immigrants, but that does not make us all immigrants. Ringer
  • Score: 0

12:18pm Fri 21 Jun 13

benzss says...

I didn't say most countries were founded on immigration; I said the USA owes its prosperity and reputation to immigration. And its founding, of course.

I'm not sure of the relevance of the racism study. I am amused by France's position, though.
I didn't say most countries were founded on immigration; I said the USA owes its prosperity and reputation to immigration. And its founding, of course. I'm not sure of the relevance of the racism study. I am amused by France's position, though. benzss
  • Score: 0

1:05pm Fri 21 Jun 13

Ringer says...


I'm not sure of the relevance of the racism study. I am amused by France's position, though.


The relevance is that your inference that anyone who dares question the sense in welcoming illegal immigrants verges on 'racism' is rather pathetic when research shows that it's nations with a mainly white indigenous population that are the most tolerant of different races - or have been forced to be.

Why does France's position 'amuse' you? Is it because it's the only one of two majority white nations that are listed amongst the 12 most racist nations?

Anyway it's fairly obvious who you actually are and, as you've pointed out on several occasions, you're an immigrant yourself, so hardly likely to hold a balanced and realistic view.
[quote] I'm not sure of the relevance of the racism study. I am amused by France's position, though. [/quote] [p] The relevance is that your inference that anyone who dares question the sense in welcoming illegal immigrants verges on 'racism' is rather pathetic when research shows that it's nations with a mainly white indigenous population that are the most tolerant of different races - or have been forced to be. [p] Why does France's position 'amuse' you? Is it because it's the only one of two majority white nations that are listed amongst the 12 most racist nations? [p] Anyway it's fairly obvious who you actually are and, as you've pointed out on several occasions, you're an immigrant yourself, so hardly likely to hold a balanced and realistic view. Ringer
  • Score: 0

1:30pm Fri 21 Jun 13

benzss says...

Ringer wrote:

I'm not sure of the relevance of the racism study. I am amused by France's position, though.


The relevance is that your inference that anyone who dares question the sense in welcoming illegal immigrants verges on 'racism' is rather pathetic when research shows that it's nations with a mainly white indigenous population that are the most tolerant of different races - or have been forced to be.

Why does France's position 'amuse' you? Is it because it's the only one of two majority white nations that are listed amongst the 12 most racist nations?

Anyway it's fairly obvious who you actually are and, as you've pointed out on several occasions, you're an immigrant yourself, so hardly likely to hold a balanced and realistic view.
Let me be clearer: some people who disagree with immigration do so not on the basis of reasoned opinion, but instead on (as I've said a million times) a simple ingroup mentality. A belief that people who are more like them are more deserving of certain things simply because they are more similar. This I've labelled as tribalism. And a few posts ago I did say that tribalism is NOT racism. The UK may not be very racist but it is certainly tribalist.

I'm not going to disagree that being anti-immigration is not necessarily racist (it clearly is not).

And, er, where have I pointed out that I'm an immigrant? I can be 'indigenous' and pro-immigration, you know.
[quote][p][bold]Ringer[/bold] wrote: [quote] I'm not sure of the relevance of the racism study. I am amused by France's position, though. [/quote] [p] The relevance is that your inference that anyone who dares question the sense in welcoming illegal immigrants verges on 'racism' is rather pathetic when research shows that it's nations with a mainly white indigenous population that are the most tolerant of different races - or have been forced to be. [p] Why does France's position 'amuse' you? Is it because it's the only one of two majority white nations that are listed amongst the 12 most racist nations? [p] Anyway it's fairly obvious who you actually are and, as you've pointed out on several occasions, you're an immigrant yourself, so hardly likely to hold a balanced and realistic view.[/p][/quote]Let me be clearer: some people who disagree with immigration do so not on the basis of reasoned opinion, but instead on (as I've said a million times) a simple ingroup mentality. A belief that people who are more like them are more deserving of certain things simply because they are more similar. This I've labelled as tribalism. And a few posts ago I did say that tribalism is NOT racism. The UK may not be very racist but it is certainly tribalist. I'm not going to disagree that being anti-immigration is not necessarily racist (it clearly is not). And, er, where have I pointed out that I'm an immigrant? I can be 'indigenous' and pro-immigration, you know. benzss
  • Score: 0

9:23pm Fri 21 Jun 13

Ringer says...

benzss wrote:
Ringer wrote:

I'm not sure of the relevance of the racism study. I am amused by France's position, though.


The relevance is that your inference that anyone who dares question the sense in welcoming illegal immigrants verges on 'racism' is rather pathetic when research shows that it's nations with a mainly white indigenous population that are the most tolerant of different races - or have been forced to be.

Why does France's position 'amuse' you? Is it because it's the only one of two majority white nations that are listed amongst the 12 most racist nations?

Anyway it's fairly obvious who you actually are and, as you've pointed out on several occasions, you're an immigrant yourself, so hardly likely to hold a balanced and realistic view.
Let me be clearer: some people who disagree with immigration do so not on the basis of reasoned opinion, but instead on (as I've said a million times) a simple ingroup mentality. A belief that people who are more like them are more deserving of certain things simply because they are more similar. This I've labelled as tribalism. And a few posts ago I did say that tribalism is NOT racism. The UK may not be very racist but it is certainly tribalist.

I'm not going to disagree that being anti-immigration is not necessarily racist (it clearly is not).

And, er, where have I pointed out that I'm an immigrant? I can be 'indigenous' and pro-immigration, you know.
You have claimed to be an immigrant many times, Politicrat.
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ringer[/bold] wrote: [quote] I'm not sure of the relevance of the racism study. I am amused by France's position, though. [/quote] [p] The relevance is that your inference that anyone who dares question the sense in welcoming illegal immigrants verges on 'racism' is rather pathetic when research shows that it's nations with a mainly white indigenous population that are the most tolerant of different races - or have been forced to be. [p] Why does France's position 'amuse' you? Is it because it's the only one of two majority white nations that are listed amongst the 12 most racist nations? [p] Anyway it's fairly obvious who you actually are and, as you've pointed out on several occasions, you're an immigrant yourself, so hardly likely to hold a balanced and realistic view.[/p][/quote]Let me be clearer: some people who disagree with immigration do so not on the basis of reasoned opinion, but instead on (as I've said a million times) a simple ingroup mentality. A belief that people who are more like them are more deserving of certain things simply because they are more similar. This I've labelled as tribalism. And a few posts ago I did say that tribalism is NOT racism. The UK may not be very racist but it is certainly tribalist. I'm not going to disagree that being anti-immigration is not necessarily racist (it clearly is not). And, er, where have I pointed out that I'm an immigrant? I can be 'indigenous' and pro-immigration, you know.[/p][/quote]You have claimed to be an immigrant many times, Politicrat. Ringer
  • Score: 0

9:45pm Fri 21 Jun 13

benzss says...

Ok.... I don't want to be a part of this bizarre and ever so slightly paranoid charade that you and a few others in these threads seem to enjoy. I'll leave that with you. It was an interesting chat anyway.
Ok.... I don't want to be a part of this bizarre and ever so slightly paranoid charade that you and a few others in these threads seem to enjoy. I'll leave that with you. It was an interesting chat anyway. benzss
  • Score: 0

Comments are closed on this article.

click2find

About cookies

We want you to enjoy your visit to our website. That's why we use cookies to enhance your experience. By staying on our website you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more about the cookies we use.

I agree