Your views on election results (From Swindon Advertiser)

Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
8:52am Fri 2 May 08

I would like to open the comments by saying that I am extremely proud of my groups candidates. We stood in 11 wards and in 8 of those we pushed the Lib-dems into 4th place, clearly making us now the 3rd party in Swindon. Let us hope that the press now give us the coverage that position deserves, and then perhaps in the coming months and years Swindon UKIP can provide a realistic alterantive to the current 2 party system in Swindon. Last nights turnout was extremely disappointing, and clearly benefited the Conservatives as Labour supporters failed to vote. Lets hope voters now see a vote for UKIP is far from a wasted vote.

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doug@homefarm, SN1 says...
8:56am Fri 2 May 08

Well we turned out enough to retain existing seats and to gain one! In the light of the anti labour vitriol we see in these posts I think thats a bit of a result. Could do a lot better, but thats down tto the party and its members to deal with.

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doug@homefarm, SN1 says...
8:58am Fri 2 May 08

RFM I will never vote for UKIP, but I congratulate you on your consistency and dynamism for your party.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:01am Fri 2 May 08

adam your facade has been revealed. Not personal attacks then, politically motivated ones. The complaint I have heard the most about the campaigns of the other 3 parties, negative campaigning rather than telling the truth about the dire states Swindon Borough is in.

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merv, swindon says...
9:01am Fri 2 May 08

Let me tell you a little story on the council then make you own mind up they are doing a good job
Rats in the area hmm Im sure this is a problem for all

council tax rises and wot are paying for police who do not do not do there job unless they are raiding drug dens or labeling everyone as a druken yob and suggestion of corrupt behaviour and the hightest rank good luck pc helen barnes

Control on door staff protection racket in swindon some may have seen programme panorma and wot does the council do ignore it and did you no that it is the police and councils who enforce sia polices THERE NO HOPE

Council claw back overpayments unlawfully then when they lose they want to make a fool of themselves again well goodluck

LABOUR

When it came out about post office row and MP anne snelgrove took a brave move and it turn was damed for doing it however she took steps to ensure it was for the best intrest of swindom and Is it better to have a mp who is brave and stands strong againt opposition

I have never voted but wwent to anne for her help ref a victim of a violent assualt it which would frighten the public and expose what is going on in police and council

I have never met such a person who cares about the intrestes of swindon her and her team and hope that knowing what i know people would feel the same

We all know gordon brown is weak however is it or is it not about local area

so ask your self ARE YOU HAPPY WITH OUR COUNCIL I am sure 80 per cent would say no

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:04am Fri 2 May 08

Doug, thank you for your comments, but never say never, those were my sentiments 2 years ago after a life time of voting Tory.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:07am Fri 2 May 08

merv all I would say was over the post office issue, she stood with placards in Swindon and then two days later voted to close 2500. Hardly an honourable thing to do.

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merv, swindon says...
9:12am Fri 2 May 08

Robert I would say Brave and why point out the bad press what about the good that has been done and the rest of the issues involving the council this is not about the post office BUT PUBLIC SAFETY which she is more involved in than petty games on post office point scoring from the opposition

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doug@homefarm, SN1 says...
9:14am Fri 2 May 08

I think I can say never RFM, Ihave stood on a voting maxim for the past 40 years of 'In the absence of a socialist vote labour, it works for me. At its root UKIP is a nationalist party, as a marxsist and communist i cannot agree with nationalism. There is of course nothing wrong with national pride or national identity, nationalism on the other hand is the first step on the road to fascism.

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emmylou83, Stratton says...
9:15am Fri 2 May 08

I didn't vote but am happy with the result. adam no wonder you were on at me to vote, you're related to "one of them"

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:17am Fri 2 May 08

Sorry merv you mentioned post offices not me, I merely pointed out she did one thing locally, but supported the Government in the vote. I merely responded to your comment. If she has served you well, fine, but tens of thousands of Swindon people think our sitting MP's do little for Swindon, rightly r wrongly that is the perception.

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DarkAuror, Swindon says...
9:18am Fri 2 May 08

Can someone tell the correct make of the council please as I have two different figures.

BBC
Conservative 41
Labour 11
Liberal Democrat 3
Others 4

Adver
Conservative 42
Labour 12
Liberal Democrat 3
Others 1

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swindon_girl_1986, ABBEYMEADS, SWINDON says...
9:21am Fri 2 May 08

Unfortunetly I didn't finish work until 11 last night so i was unable to vote but I am please with the result for the lady whos is going to be dealing with abbey meads she seems to have experience but also seems like a person who will actually care what happens and will do whatever she can I am grateful that we have not got labour as I will never vote for labour again

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:21am Fri 2 May 08

Doug, I am staggered, history has shown us that Socialism/Communism is the worst form of fascism. It hides behind the respectability of being of the people for the people. UKIP stands for all the people, all the time, and yes we are proud of being a party that wishes to put Britain and the wider UK first. 88% of the population actually want that. The task for UKIP is to pursued the electorate that the other 3 parties will ultimately put Britain well down the line of priorities in their pursuit of the EU/Common Purpose Project.

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dc, swindon says...
9:22am Fri 2 May 08

RFM i contest your claim that UKIP is now "clearly the 3rd party in Swindon over lib dem (who i didnt vote for)

in the 11 wards where Lib Dem and UKIP met the total votes were 2487 LD and 2231 UKIP and the Lib Dem's have another 4478 votes in other wards (uncontested by UKIP) accross the town.

This means a total Swindon Lib Dem vote of 6965 versus UKIP 2231, clearly not making UKIP the 3rrd party of the Swindon populous.

** its early i could have my maths wrong**

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Donkey, Swindon says...
9:24am Fri 2 May 08

I think, on the whole, that given the help and assistance from high places by Brown, Balls, Darling and Harman etc., Labour have done particularly well in Swindon.

What we have here is a case of general satisfaction with the current Council and a clear indication that many new residents to the area have, in a majority of areas, brought with them their voting habits in favour of the Conservatives. Nothing wrong in that, the Council do rather promote expensive new homes over and above affordable ones!

This trend cannot be undone easily, personal choice is good democracy, and maybe we have to couple the protest votes and apathy from regular Labour voters to read into the results, many issues locally, which have not been considered.

I will say that the Tory candidates have had excellent backing from their party, not just in funding, but I have seen them walk the streets as never before. In Western, Labour have an energetic new Councillor in Jim Grant, but also, his main opponent, Mr Heaton-Jones was well supported by Mr Tomlinson and party in numbers on many occasions. Perhaps, the Tories think about security of numbers within the Councillor ranks to a far higher degree than in the past, when we rarely saw their faces in Western ward? Though they do tend to look down on this area and treat it like a community of second class citizens, it has to be said.

I hope that the other parties can still push the Tory Council into, at least listening to the residents in wards not under their control and make them realise that it is their duty to do the best for EVERYONE in this borough and not just wards where their supporters dwell.

After all, nationally, Brown and Co have looked after the wealthy of this country over and above those less well off, so in return perhaps the Council may think before spending, wastefully and frivilously, on 'lame ducks' and refund some of the Council Tax they are taking from us every year which is over and above the figure they, so regularly, inform us was totally uncalled for under the previous Labour administration!

I think, on the whole, that given the help and assistance from high places by Brown, Balls, Darling and Harman etc., Labour have done particularly well in Swindon. What we have here is a case of general satisfaction with the current Council and a clear indication that many new residents to the area have, in a majority of areas, brought with them their voting habits in favour of the Conservatives. Nothing wrong in that, the Council do rather promote expensive new homes over and above affordable ones! This trend cannot be undone easily, personal choice is good democracy, and maybe we have to couple the protest votes and apathy from regular Labour voters to read into the results, many issues locally, which have not been considered. I will say that the Tory candidates have had excellent backing from their party, not just in funding, but I have seen them walk the streets as never before. In Western, Labour have an energetic new Councillor in Jim Grant, but also, his main opponent, Mr Heaton-Jones was well supported by Mr Tomlinson and party in numbers on many occasions. Perhaps, the Tories think about security of numbers within the Councillor ranks to a far higher degree than in the past, when we rarely saw their faces in Western ward? Though they do tend to look down on this area and treat it like a community of second class citizens, it has to be said. I hope that the other parties can still push the Tory Council into, at least listening to the residents in wards not under their control and make them realise that it is their duty to do the best for EVERYONE in this borough and not just wards where their supporters dwell. After all, nationally, Brown and Co have looked after the wealthy of this country over and above those less well off, so in return perhaps the Council may think before spending, wastefully and frivilously, on 'lame ducks' and refund some of the Council Tax they are taking from us every year which is over and above the figure they, so regularly, inform us was totally uncalled for under the previous Labour administration!

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:27am Fri 2 May 08

I am aware you didn't express a political leaning adam, but having a Conservative Candidate as a brother in most cases would lend one to believe where your affiliation lies. As for: I can assure you that my abhorrence for the UKIP is in no way a smear campaign. Lets face it the figures speak for themselves. I will let others form their own opinions. I think you were admonished on more than one occasions for your comments by other posters. As for the result I am delighted as already stated. 8 third places is a major advance on last year in a very small turn out.

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DarkAuror, Swindon says...
9:31am Fri 2 May 08

I'll be interested to see the final figures for Western Ward. As Donkey mentioned, it was interesting that both the big parties were out in force to get people to vote. I could be wrong but I thought I even saw Justin Tomlinson out in Western Ward as well. For Labour, I saw Des Moffett and Jim Grant knocking on the doors. So, I'm guessing the result was close.

Adver, Any news on my previous post about the make up of the council as BBC are reporting 3 seats that have not gone to the big 3 and your figures actually has 1 less seat?

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:31am Fri 2 May 08

DC we do not have a PR system, we pushed them in to 8 fourth places. That to be is a great achievement and is the foundation for a major push in the brand new Wiltshire Unitary authority next year, as well as the Europeans. You can dismiss the result however the tide is slowly turning. 12 months ago I wouldn't have attempted to claim we could achieve this.

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LordBelacqua, Swindon says...
9:31am Fri 2 May 08

I don't think it was just Swindon Donkey...Labour are now looking at being behind the Lib Dems in the locals, according to the BBC...

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Al Smith, Swindon, UK says...
9:37am Fri 2 May 08

RFM, been taking spin lessons?

Did UKIP win any Swindon wards? Don't think so, so how can you even begin to claim UKIP is Swindon's 3rd party?

That's the sort of codswallop I expect to hear from Labour...

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DarkAuror, Swindon says...
9:40am Fri 2 May 08

Answered my own question about Western Ward, Jim Grant won with a majority of 171.

Still not sure why the BBC figures are different to the Adver?

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REDFRED, wickite says...
9:40am Fri 2 May 08

RFM, i may not have voted for one of your candidates but i do admire the fact that you are always willing to aur your views publicly. i never here anything interesting from the other parties.

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dc, swindon says...
9:40am Fri 2 May 08

RFM - i cannot dismiss the result, because it is what it is. I am dismissed the claims you are making from it.

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Justin Tomlinson, Taw Hill, Swindon says...
9:47am Fri 2 May 08

I would like to thank everyone who voted Conservative, we really do appreciate it.

In North Swindon we secured record majorities in the 7 of 9 we won. The two we missed we had our best results in living memory, in particular Gorse Hill & Pinehurst where you have to go back to 1967 for the last time we did so well. (I also have to say I was very pleased my Mom did so well in our ward - Abbey Meads)

In South Swindon to take a seat in Parks is unbelievable - that is a spectacular result.

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Justin Tomlinson, Taw Hill, Swindon says...
9:51am Fri 2 May 08

Breakdown of the vote:

North
Cons 56.21
Lab 27.58
LD 8.64

South
Cons 52.75
Lab 21.67
LD 21.25

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Robin Harris, Swindon says...
9:51am Fri 2 May 08

We always see excuses for poor results. One that strikes me is that the new residents of Swindon should be regarded as Tory voters. If affluence is the key to Tory votes why did Labour lose the Parks seat? Another excuse to come I suppose.

Anne Snelgrove inferred that their supporters didn't turn out. With 60 to 70% of the electorate not voting it is a bit niaive to assume it was one parties or the anothers who didn't vote.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:54am Fri 2 May 08

I repeat we stood in 11 wards and in 8 of those wards we relegated the Lib-Dems to 4th place, something I think I am right in saying that has rarely happened before, except perhaps when their have been Independents, the only one of whom this time finished below UKIP also, who usually turn out to be one party or another really. As for spin I am merely stating that on the night had we stood in other wards, looking at the results where we didn't we could easily have doubled our 3rd place results.

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DarkAuror, Swindon says...
9:56am Fri 2 May 08

Justin, what is the correct make up of the council? As the Adver and BBC are reporting different figures.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:59am Fri 2 May 08

Robin I would agree, the apathy was was evident. I think as I alluded to many voters thought what's the point the Tories will retain control whatever the result. Justin can post percentages of votes until the cows come home but the fact remains that at least 65% of Swindons voters stayed at home. By the way anyone know what percentage of postal votes there were. This wasn't being flagged up by SBC last night. The biggest cheer of the night came when the Tories thought they had taken Central. I think one of the counters were having a laugh. Don't think the Labour group found it funny.

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Justin Tomlinson, Taw Hill, Swindon says...
10:01am Fri 2 May 08

DarkAuror wrote:
Can someone tell the correct make of the council please as I have two different figures. BBC Conservative 41 Labour 11 Liberal Democrat 3 Others 4 Adver Conservative 42 Labour 12 Liberal Democrat 3 Others 1

I am very tired, but I believe the Adver was closest:

Conservative 43 (Up 1)
Labour 12
Lib Dem 3
Others 1 (Down 1)

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Justin Tomlinson, Taw Hill, Swindon says...
10:04am Fri 2 May 08

Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:
Robin I would agree, the apathy was was evident. I think as I alluded to many voters thought what's the point the Tories will retain control whatever the result. Justin can post percentages of votes until the cows come home but the fact remains that at least 65% of Swindons voters stayed at home. By the way anyone know what percentage of postal votes there were. This wasn't being flagged up by SBC last night. The biggest cheer of the night came when the Tories thought they had taken Central. I think one of the counters were having a laugh. Don't think the Labour group found it funny.

We would all like voter turnouts to be higher.

As I explained to RFM, we (the political parties, him included) have to do more to increase turnout as you have to earn the support of voters.

In UKIP's case, they made it clear they thought they could win upto 2 seats and would become the main opposition in a number of seats - this didn't happen.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
10:23am Fri 2 May 08

Justin, you can't help yourself, even after the election something your party and the other 2 were accused of was negative attacks on others, and you are still doing it. Other parties and posters can try to 'rubbish' what UKIP achieved, but the fact remains that we had 8 3rd places out of 11 wards, that is excellent for a party who many accuse of not having domestic policies, we do have and most make the main parties policies look stupid. Our Defence policy is receiving rave reviews from within the services, because it takes account of their very special position in Britain's society, so scoff all you like Justin, but if my group and myself in particular are of so little consequence why on several occasions during this campaign and before have you attempted to get me to jump ship.

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Phoenix One UK, Swindon says...
10:30am Fri 2 May 08

My opinion had been the subject of debate on another site where I closed my involvement with, quote

There exist civil concerns with majority of citizens having no confidence in its own government.

It has already been voiced, even within this very thread, that the UK is not a true democracy. If that is true then our country possesses bigger problems than even its citizens are aware.

How can we invade another country under the moral high ground of assisting that country to become a democracy when our own country does not even have one?

The UK is either a democracy or it is not. If not, then that is something worth fighting for, but a topic for another thread. So, does anyone wish to start that debate?

It has become apparent that this debate has become sensitive, and rightly so, because it touches on the very issue of holding Politicians to account.

Certain changes in law enabled Politicians to have holdings in conflict with their station. Simply put, it put them in a position to use their powers to push forward their own agendas, including those of which would boost their own financial interests.

Citizens possess the right to petition, including the right to voice no confidence in Government and petition the Crown to dissolve Parliament. Hopefully, such an action will never be required, with some arguing such a right does not exists. However, I believe you will find many - on both sides of the fence - exploring that possibility.

For the present, I believe Politicians need to be reminded that they work for the people. If their own beliefs and concerns are in line with majority then all fair and well, but if they are using their elected powers to push forward their own agendas then they should be held to account and removed from office.

The UK possesses over a thousand years of history with the rights and liberties we enjoy today fought and paid for in blood.

Citizens have a right to protect their rights and civil liberties, and that right includes having a say in how our country is governed, as is supposed to occur via local MPs, our elected voice in Parliament.

My original question was: Do politicians represent majority or do they abuse elected powers to push forward their own agenda? I believe the latter to be true, a belief shared by many and I suspect the majority.

Thank you all for your interest and contribution and please feel free to continue the debate.

Phoenix One UK out.

My opinion had been the subject of debate on another site where I closed my involvement with, quote There exist civil concerns with majority of citizens having no confidence in its own government. It has already been voiced, even within this very thread, that the UK is not a true democracy. If that is true then our country possesses bigger problems than even its citizens are aware. How can we invade another country under the moral high ground of assisting that country to become a democracy when our own country does not even have one? The UK is either a democracy or it is not. If not, then that is something worth fighting for, but a topic for another thread. So, does anyone wish to start that debate? It has become apparent that this debate has become sensitive, and rightly so, because it touches on the very issue of holding Politicians to account. Certain changes in law enabled Politicians to have holdings in conflict with their station. Simply put, it put them in a position to use their powers to push forward their own agendas, including those of which would boost their own financial interests. Citizens possess the right to petition, including the right to voice no confidence in Government and petition the Crown to dissolve Parliament. Hopefully, such an action will never be required, with some arguing such a right does not exists. However, I believe you will find many - on both sides of the fence - exploring that possibility. For the present, I believe Politicians need to be reminded that they work for the people. If their own beliefs and concerns are in line with majority then all fair and well, but if they are using their elected powers to push forward their own agendas then they should be held to account and removed from office. The UK possesses over a thousand years of history with the rights and liberties we enjoy today fought and paid for in blood. Citizens have a right to protect their rights and civil liberties, and that right includes having a say in how our country is governed, as is supposed to occur via local MPs, our elected voice in Parliament. My original question was: Do politicians represent majority or do they abuse elected powers to push forward their own agenda? I believe the latter to be true, a belief shared by many and I suspect the majority. Thank you all for your interest and contribution and please feel free to continue the debate. Phoenix One UK out.

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Justin Tomlinson, Taw Hill, Swindon says...
10:41am Fri 2 May 08

Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:
Justin, you can't help yourself, even after the election something your party and the other 2 were accused of was negative attacks on others, and you are still doing it. Other parties and posters can try to 'rubbish' what UKIP achieved, but the fact remains that we had 8 3rd places out of 11 wards, that is excellent for a party who many accuse of not having domestic policies, we do have and most make the main parties policies look stupid. Our Defence policy is receiving rave reviews from within the services, because it takes account of their very special position in Britain's society, so scoff all you like Justin, but if my group and myself in particular are of so little consequence why on several occasions during this campaign and before have you attempted to get me to jump ship.

RFM calm down!

Firstly I was giving an opinion on low turnouts at election time, which I would say was fair.

Secondly, you are not the only person allowed to give a personal opinion on the election results. You were very confident pre-election of doing better than you did (I didn't say your 3rd places were good or bad, that is for the public to decide) just reminded you it wasn't as good as you had predicted.

Negative attacks, nonsense. You asked me questions in my web chat (very happy for you to do so), and I asked you questions in return (surely you wanted a busier web chat, they weren't tricky questions).

Anyway, RFM I admire your determination so don't be so paranoid we aren't all out to get you, UKIP and yourself have the same rights as anyone else to pitch for votes - ultimately it will be the voters who will decide as they did last night.

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dc, swindon says...
10:44am Fri 2 May 08

i am not trying to "rubbish what UKIP achieved" merely not allow you to misrepresent (IMO) the scale of the vote:

approx total Votes cast 45809

Conservative 25106
Labour 11567
Lib Dem 6644
UKIP 2301
Ind. 191

%'s

Conservative 54.81%
Labour 25.25%
Lib Dem 14.50%
UKIP 5.02%
Ind 0.42%

Still think you are 3rd biggest party in Swindon with your 5% of the vote? 3 times less than lib dem?

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Cllr David Sammels, Swindon says...
10:59am Fri 2 May 08

Thank you to all of the residents of Upper Stratton who elected Cllr Sinead Darker with such a large majority. I'm looking forward to working with her to help resolve the problems we face in the area.

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Robin Harris, Swindon says...
11:01am Fri 2 May 08

dc. What a pathetic interpretation of the figures. Lib Dems were beaten by UKIP in several seats that is the truth.

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dc, swindon says...
11:04am Fri 2 May 08

Robin,

Yes, they were i am not denying that at all it is a fact.

But RFM stated "the 3rd biggest party in swindon" and that is simple not the case taking Swindon as a whole.

How is my interpretation, by giving the full picture, a pathetic interpretation?

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DarkAuror, Swindon says...
11:09am Fri 2 May 08

Right then! Before this turns in to a statistics fight, we have to remember something.

This was a local election, where voters have chosen who they feel will serve best for them, for where they live and for Swindon. The results are in and now it's Day 1 for this new council term. Instead of the candidates promising what they will do if elected. We now need to see these promises worked on to fruition.

Well done to everyone who got elected and good luck.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:11am Fri 2 May 08

UKIP had a great result pushing the party who many have always seen as the alternative 'vote' into 4th place, is no mean achievement. The people of Swindon at a 29.6% are hardly giving a ringing endorsement to the Councillors of Swindon. Do we not constantly hear the Tories claim that Labour do not have a mandate to rule based on only 25% of the electorate voting for them at the GE, prey tell what is the difference, an average 70.4% not voting (apart of course from 4%). dc we can all bandy stats, our top 5 performers averaged 10% of the votes, in the wards we stood, what did the Lib-dems average in those wards. Justin the worse form of victor is he who gloats. You are right I said we stood a chance in 2 wards. I was also honest enough if you read back in your emails to concede it was unlikely. Had anyone asked what would be a result I would have taken at the outset, I would have honestly said an improvement on the 1 3rd place we had last year. This year we have 8. In my book that is an achievement the entire group can be proud of.

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dc, swindon says...
11:18am Fri 2 May 08

RFM, completely agree with what you are saying there. Definite improvement for you guys.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:39am Fri 2 May 08

Thank you dc.

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ifuwantblood, swindon says...
12:33pm Fri 2 May 08

Firstly, hello to all posters. I have been an observer only for some time and enjoy the lively debates on these pages.

For my first ever post here, I would simply like to ask all elected candidates of whatever party to please remember why they are elected and who they represent. Most ordinary citizens are tired of the bickering between parties, the spin and the attempts to score points off each other. What we really want to see is councillors behaving with honesty and integrity and acting with the best interests of the electorate at heart. If you can do this then you wont go far wrong. Those who can't or won't will find that we are not as stupid as they seem to think we are. Is this really too much to ask?

Congratulations to the winners, and commiserations to the losers.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
12:36pm Fri 2 May 08

Talk about dirty politics.
Hartlepool Conservatives fielded spoiler candidates in several wards, where they split the vote sufficiently to ensure sitting Labour councillors were re-elected. Will Hartlepool Council become a Labour/Tory alliance? Politics can make strange bedfellows. UKIP won one seat and missed out on 2 others because of this quite despicable tactic, one by just 2 votes. What Nigel Farage say, not a fag paper between them, it seems now even that has been removed.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
12:50pm Fri 2 May 08

What do they say about those who want to ride on the back of others fame. ifuwantblood,
Totally agree with everything you say. Imosted the other post prior to seeing yours, but it sadly sums up exactly what you are talking about, when the two main parties collude to stop UKIP candidates being elected, do we not serious have to question what depths our politics and our politicians have sunk.

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Mumstheword, Walcot says...
1:17pm Fri 2 May 08

And a big thumbs up to the Adver Webteam, who had those results up on the site almost as soon as they were announced! Especially the very dedicated, hard working Steph for her excellent election coverage :)

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Mumstheword, Walcot says...
1:19pm Fri 2 May 08

And a big thumbs up to the Adver Webteam, who had those results up on the site almost as soon as they were announced! Especially the very dedicated, hard working Steph for her excellent election coverage :)

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Mumstheword, Walcot says...
1:27pm Fri 2 May 08

apologies for double post! Busy server

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Justin Tomlinson, Taw Hill, Swindon says...
1:38pm Fri 2 May 08

Steph deserved a double thanks!

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emmylou83, Stratton says...
2:19pm Fri 2 May 08

Justin Tomlinson wrote:
Steph deserved a double thanks!

Careful she'll get big-headed

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P S Altery, Swindon says...
2:44pm Fri 2 May 08

doug@homefarm wrote:
I think I can say never RFM, Ihave stood on a voting maxim for the past 40 years of 'In the absence of a socialist vote labour, it works for me. At its root UKIP is a nationalist party, as a marxsist and communist i cannot agree with nationalism. There is of course nothing wrong with national pride or national identity, nationalism on the other hand is the first step on the road to fascism.

I'm confused, what has a mixture of 18th century British Economics, 18th Century French Revolutionary Politics and early 19th Century German Hegelian Philosophy, for this is what Marxism is, got do do with the 21st Century? Explain yourself Douglas!!! Explain to the good readers the intellectual conceits of Dialectic Materialsm, for if you don't I shall have to ask Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
iiiiichard to serenade The Red Flag to you on his Swarmandal!

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Frontier(s), says...
3:39pm Fri 2 May 08

Donkey wrote:

I think, on the whole, that given the help and assistance from high places by Brown, Balls, Darling and Harman etc., Labour have done particularly well in Swindon.

It was probably the 'help' from those four imbeciles that led Labour to do so spectacularly badly in Swindon, just as they did nationally.

Just waiting for Boris to be declared mayor of London and the Labour humiliation will be complete.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
4:15pm Fri 2 May 08

Frontier one party politics is fascism by any other name. Without credible opposition, the public become slave to the State. This is what the long term goal is of the EU/Common Purpose, remove all opposition and the assimilation will be complete. Britain will be no more and a Super State will be born. And remember the first master will be Tony Blair, it is all decreed.

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jo-ent, Swindon says...
4:44pm Fri 2 May 08

New council make-up is unchanged. The Conservatives gained one from Labour(Parks), but also lost one to Labour (Central). Assuming we accept former Cllr Owen Lister was technically a Tory and has just been replaced by another, that means it's no change: So Conservative 43, Labour 12, LibDem 3, Others 1 (Glaholm). This is confirmed by the SBC website.

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miss_l, Swindon says...
5:37pm Fri 2 May 08

It's about time Labour were out of power. they have destroyed this country through high taxes - going up all the time with no sign of stopping. Immigrants, crime and the way they deal with it. Prisons are full (with illegal immigrants), why not send them home - without the money us tax payers usually give them. That would also save over £37,000 per year (the amount it costs for 1 prisoner). Stop being lenient on serious crimes. Life should mean life. Stop penalising car owners with high tax, insurance, penalties, fines etc.. Let people drive again. Just a few of my views - I could go on all day. Maybe I should be Prime Minister and give the country want they want?

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
6:15pm Fri 2 May 08

miis, at the risk of upsetting people,
Prisons are full (with illegal immigrants), why not send them home - without the money us tax payers usually give them Because the EU will not let us. Fact I'm afraid, this EU that the Tories will continue in. UKIP can only warn voters of the potential for Britain to be no more. You have got to start searching out the truth.

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P S Altery, Swindon says...
7:11pm Fri 2 May 08

Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:
miis, at the risk of upsetting people, Prisons are full (with illegal immigrants), why not send them home - without the money us tax payers usually give them Because the EU will not let us. Fact I'm afraid, this EU that the Tories will continue in. UKIP can only warn voters of the potential for Britain to be no more. You have got to start searching out the truth.

Miss has a point though, if people hadn't voted for Labour in 1997, 2001 and 2005, perhaps, just perhaps we wouldn't be almost back to 1979. Yes, the Conservatives are to blame to an extent, Margaret Thatcher stood up to Europe, and her party ditched her as a result. Dave Cameron has to start addressing this, and with the help of movements, like UKIP, perhaps he will. You are correct in saying that the unelected EU will not allow us to send foreign criminals home. Those foreign criminals who are EU nationals cannot be deported and I applaud the UKIP and Migration Watch for pointing this out. I also applaud UKIP and Migration Watch for pointing out that Labour has, with intent and purpose, opened up our borders in order to create a voter base. The people of this country were never consulted, never asked. The policy of the open door, and the sell out to Europe has been done behind closed doors, and the Govt has lied, and covered up. Once again I thank the UKIP party for helping to expose a policy that no one has ever voted for, and that few people want. RFM, the Conservatives are not ideal, but with enough people ditching Labour perhaps together we can stop the insanity that has seen us give up our national self determinantion. And before Douglas at Home weighs in with his reactionary Marxist politics, perhaps it might be an idea to read Solzhenitsyn's "The Gulag Archipleago". Read it and it will make you realise that his politics come from the same vile tradition as the NSDAP. He should be ashamed. As should all the handful who voted for the representatves of Gordon Browns tired, outdated and useless Govt.

[quote][bold]Robert Feal-Martinez[/bold] wrote: miis, at the risk of upsetting people, [bold]Prisons are full (with illegal immigrants), why not send them home - without the money us tax payers usually give them[/bold] Because the EU will not let us. Fact I'm afraid, this EU that the Tories will continue in. UKIP can only warn voters of the potential for Britain to be no more. You have got to start searching out the truth.[/quote] Miss has a point though, if people hadn't voted for Labour in 1997, 2001 and 2005, perhaps, just perhaps we wouldn't be almost back to 1979. Yes, the Conservatives are to blame to an extent, Margaret Thatcher stood up to Europe, and her party ditched her as a result. Dave Cameron has to start addressing this, and with the help of movements, like UKIP, perhaps he will. You are correct in saying that the unelected EU will not allow us to send foreign criminals home. Those foreign criminals who are EU nationals cannot be deported and I applaud the UKIP and Migration Watch for pointing this out. I also applaud UKIP and Migration Watch for pointing out that Labour has, with intent and purpose, opened up our borders in order to create a voter base. The people of this country were never consulted, never asked. The policy of the open door, and the sell out to Europe has been done behind closed doors, and the Govt has lied, and covered up. Once again I thank the UKIP party for helping to expose a policy that no one has ever voted for, and that few people want. RFM, the Conservatives are not ideal, but with enough people ditching Labour perhaps together we can stop the insanity that has seen us give up our national self determinantion. And before Douglas at Home weighs in with his reactionary Marxist politics, perhaps it might be an idea to read Solzhenitsyn's "The Gulag Archipleago". Read it and it will make you realise that his politics come from the same vile tradition as the NSDAP. He should be ashamed. As should all the handful who voted for the representatves of Gordon Browns tired, outdated and useless Govt.

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doug@homefarm, SN1 says...
7:25pm Fri 2 May 08

And before Douglas at Home weighs in with his reactionary Marxist politics, perhaps it might be an idea to read Solzhenitsyn's "The Gulag Archipleago".

Read it years ago psaltry, but this was refering to Stalinism, not Communism and I have no intention of giving a thesis on dialectical materialism in this forum thanks very much.

if Riiiiiiiiiiiiichaaaa
aaaaaard must play I would prefer the Internationalle, more appropriate to communists than the Red Flag!

Have you read 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists'

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
8:08pm Fri 2 May 08

RFM, the Conservatives are not ideal, but with enough people ditching Labour perhaps together we can stop the insanity that has seen us give up our national self determination. PSA I fear the root course goes much deeper, and I am not playing politics here. Cameron has already made it clear that he will not have retrospective Referendum on the Reform Treaty. You will recall I tried to get Justin to confirm that was the case, but he evaded the question. I respect Justin's personal view and I know he wants to see one, I therefore do not see how he can stand as a Tory at the next election when the survival of Britain as Sovereign State will be the fundamental issue on which such a campaign will be fought, because thing is for certain non of the 3 other parties will have a retrospective referendum in their manifesto, but UKIP most certainly will. We will show the people of Britain and the wider UK exactly what the options are, because make no mistake in 2 years time it will be a simple in/out debate.

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maddag, swindon says...
9:15pm Fri 2 May 08

Good to see Labour getting a good stuffing all over the country it is what they deserve , I wrote to Kevin Small in 1995 regarding a serious matter that was taking place in Swindon regarding the tip at West Swindon but never even got the decencey of a reply tis true you get what you sow .GOODBYE USELESS LEADER SMALL YOUR TIME IS UP ,YOU ARE A COMPLETE FAILURE ,ALWAYS HAVE BEEN ALWAYS WILL BE

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P S Altery, Swindon says...
9:35pm Fri 2 May 08

doug@homefarm wrote:
And before Douglas at Home weighs in with his reactionary Marxist politics, perhaps it might be an idea to read Solzhenitsyn's "The Gulag Archipleago". Read it years ago psaltry, but this was refering to Stalinism, not Communism and I have no intention of giving a thesis on dialectical materialism in this forum thanks very much. if Riiiiiiiiiiiiichaaaa aaaaaard must play I would prefer the Internationalle, more appropriate to communists than the Red Flag! Have you read 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists'

Stalinsm is Communism, but let's talk about an outdated failed ideology that impoverished people, the working people it was supposed to help. Or to put it bluntly Marxism led anyone who cared about anyone down an intelluctual blind alley, or haven't you read your Karl Popper? Don't forget Marx hated Slavs and Eastern Europeans, they didn't fit in with his Proletarian fantasies. Funny how the people he hated adopted his ideas first and then rejected them. Odd, you may as well claim the world is flat or something. How very very strange that the lunatic fringe is so out of touch and old fashioned. You may as well wonder, with your old fashioned views why it is a Nazi Stormptooper couldn't propose these ludicrous views and ask people to take you seriously. Or did you never work out that the Nazi's and Communists argued from the same extreme viewpoint? Put it simply, do you want to create an ideal society? A Utopian society based on murder those you are against and all will be fine? The NSDAP when they came to power argued from a racial view, the Bolsheviks said the same thing. Mass murder those you don't like and the ideal society will be there. Sorry Doug, you are an apologist for murder. Your viewpoint is as evil as the BNP. Your ideas are based on hatred, envy and discimination. Discrimination based on class, rather than race, which when you come to think of it is the same thing? Isn't it?

[quote][bold]doug@homefarm[/bold] wrote: And before Douglas at Home weighs in with his reactionary Marxist politics, perhaps it might be an idea to read Solzhenitsyn's "The Gulag Archipleago". Read it years ago psaltry, but this was refering to Stalinism, not Communism and I have no intention of giving a thesis on dialectical materialism in this forum thanks very much. if Riiiiiiiiiiiiichaaaa aaaaaard must play I would prefer the Internationalle, more appropriate to communists than the Red Flag! Have you read 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists'[/quote] Stalinsm is Communism, but let's talk about an outdated failed ideology that impoverished people, the working people it was supposed to help. Or to put it bluntly Marxism led anyone who cared about anyone down an intelluctual blind alley, or haven't you read your Karl Popper? Don't forget Marx hated Slavs and Eastern Europeans, they didn't fit in with his Proletarian fantasies. Funny how the people he hated adopted his ideas first and then rejected them. Odd, you may as well claim the world is flat or something. How very very strange that the lunatic fringe is so out of touch and old fashioned. You may as well wonder, with your old fashioned views why it is a Nazi Stormptooper couldn't propose these ludicrous views and ask people to take you seriously. Or did you never work out that the Nazi's and Communists argued from the same extreme viewpoint? Put it simply, do you want to create an ideal society? A Utopian society based on murder those you are against and all will be fine? The NSDAP when they came to power argued from a racial view, the Bolsheviks said the same thing. Mass murder those you don't like and the ideal society will be there. Sorry Doug, you are an apologist for murder. Your viewpoint is as evil as the BNP. Your ideas are based on hatred, envy and discimination. Discrimination based on class, rather than race, which when you come to think of it is the same thing? Isn't it?

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malkym, says...
10:28pm Fri 2 May 08

what's all this about poor turnout - I have a good turnout every morning no problem!

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CK, Swindon says...
1:10am Sat 3 May 08

Nu Labour have treated the people of this country with contempt for the past 10 years.

That came home to roost last night with the hammering Nu Labour got at the Polls and again tonight when Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London.

Nu Labour, in their arrogance forgot one thing. The people of this country put them in office and the people of this country can just as easily put them out of office.

Brown should now do the honourable and decent thing and call a General Election.

However, Brown and his cohorts won't do that because they don't know the meaning of the word 'honourable' and their arrogance simply won't let them.

Nu Labour may hang on to power for another 2 years and you can bet on one thing. They'll make life as difficult for the people of this country as they possibly can. If you think things have been bad, I reckon they're going to get a lot worse.

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P S Altery, Swindon says...
1:48am Sat 3 May 08

Spot on CK - but good news, not only have the English people rejected Labour, and their miserable failed policies, but Boris Johnson kicked Red Ken out of London. Labour are you listening to the ordinary person on the street? The decent law abiding citizen? Nope, you never have, good riddance to badly organised rubbish!

As you rightly say, Labour will tax tax tax, and fail to deliver. They will try to make our lives a misery. I say to Labour, let's make their lives a misery.

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Frontier(s), says...
3:08am Sat 3 May 08

Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions of people.

I find it obscene that some people here proudly state that they are followers of a man and political doctrine that was no better or worse than Hitler's Nazism.

Good to see Boris win London - now watch as the government budget for London is slashed to make running the captial almost impossible for Boris, even though Stalin Brown bailed out Ken Livingstone with countless billions to fund his countless expensive mistakes.

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amlorusso, Swindon says...
6:28am Sat 3 May 08

RFM,

I don't agree with your parties policies, but I'm sure you won't lose any sleep over that, so let me get to the main point.

You've repeatedly stated that UKIP is the only honest party who will tell the truth, and yet your first post in this discussion includes an outrageous piece of spin.

Your party did push the Liberal Democrats into 4th place in 8 out of 11 seats you contested, which is indeed a noteworthy accomplishment, unqualified.

But only in the world of spin can that make you the 3rd party in Swindon.

Others have reminded you that by numbers and by percentage of the vote overall is less than the Liberal Democrates. You say this isn't a PR system. You're right it isn't, it's a first past the post system. The Liberal Democrats won one contested seat (Eastcott) and have two other seats that were not contested. So how many seats does UKIP have? None. On the basis of these results how many seats are you likely to take if your party contested all the seats of the council? None. By proportion and by First past the post your party is behind the Liberal Democrats.

There isn't a single objective, meaningful measurement that supports your claim that you are the 3rd party in Swindon, which means the 3rd party in all of Swindon and not the 3rd party in 8/11ths of the seats you contested, which wasn't even the entire set of contested seats this time around.

So the 3rd placed party in Swindon fielded candidates in half of this elections contested seats? Even subjectively your claim is hollow.

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P S Altery, Swindon says...
6:47am Sat 3 May 08

Frontier(s) wrote:
Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions of people. I find it obscene that some people here proudly state that they are followers of a man and political doctrine that was no better or worse than Hitler's Nazism. Good to see Boris win London - now watch as the government budget for London is slashed to make running the captial almost impossible for Boris, even though Stalin Brown bailed out Ken Livingstone with countless billions to fund his countless expensive mistakes.

Spot on, Doug should be ashamed of himself. If he walked down the street quoting Mein Kampf he would be arrested, and probably attacked. He embraces a philosophy that in it's ugly, twisted assault on the human spirit even exceeded that of the despicable Nazi's. The death toll in the camps far exceeded even Hitler's odious henchmen. Doug, you should be ashamed, nobody apart from the lunatic fringe supports Nazism, and you are waxing lyrical about something just as bad, if not worse. Now go and join the flat earth society, or at least apologise to the countless millions of families who across the globe were destroyed by the Red Holocaust

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
8:31am Sat 3 May 08

amlorusso, what have I said that was a 'lie', that is what dishonesty is. I have stated that on the basis of the seats we pushed the Lib-Dems into 4th, 8 times and looking at the other seats it would have been likely we would have done so on 3 others, if we had stood in the wards concerned. However we took a decision not to field 'paper' candidates as this to me is an affront to democracy, having candidates standing just to boost numbers. So I am content that UKIP has indeed bucked the National trend on the night. No one could dispute that. As for the third party that is my view as the Local Results stand. No dishonesty, no lies, just my view. As for the election of Boris, Cameron now has a major problem. I do not honestly believe Cameron believed Boris would win. I think he wanted to hang him out to dry once and for all. Now Boris will Eclipse Cameron. Boris has a persona, is likeable, and strangely honest, in a non PC way. All the things Cameron isn't. Cameron dislikes Boris, and his whole reaction to victory was carefully staged managed.

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Cllr David Sammels, Swindon says...
10:36am Sat 3 May 08

Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:
amlorusso, what have I said that was a 'lie', that is what dishonesty is. I have stated that on the basis of the seats we pushed the Lib-Dems into 4th, 8 times and looking at the other seats it would have been likely we would have done so on 3 others, if we had stood in the wards concerned. However we took a decision not to field 'paper' candidates as this to me is an affront to democracy, having candidates standing just to boost numbers. So I am content that UKIP has indeed bucked the National trend on the night. No one could dispute that. As for the third party that is my view as the Local Results stand. No dishonesty, no lies, just my view. As for the election of Boris, Cameron now has a major problem. I do not honestly believe Cameron believed Boris would win. I think he wanted to hang him out to dry once and for all. Now Boris will Eclipse Cameron. Boris has a persona, is likeable, and strangely honest, in a non PC way. All the things Cameron isn't. Cameron dislikes Boris, and his whole reaction to victory was carefully staged managed.

On what basis would you say that? I'm always amazed by how many assertions you make per post.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
10:53am Sat 3 May 08

David, crystal balls are not my thing, which bit are you talking about.

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CK, Swindon says...
12:50pm Sat 3 May 08

P S Altery wrote:
Spot on CK - but good news, not only have the English people rejected Labour, and their miserable failed policies, but Boris Johnson kicked Red Ken out of London. Labour are you listening to the ordinary person on the street? The decent law abiding citizen? Nope, you never have, good riddance to badly organised rubbish! As you rightly say, Labour will tax tax tax, and fail to deliver. They will try to make our lives a misery. I say to Labour, let's make their lives a misery.

There are two by-elections coming up - Henley-on-Thames and also the late Gladys Dunwoody's ward (I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head). It will be interesting to see what happens there.

I watched Boris Johnson become Mayor of London last night. He struck me as being genuine and sincere and I hope he does do a good job, even though Brown will make it as difficult as possible for him.

On the other hand, I expected Red Ken to launch into a tirade - but he didn't. He took his defeat on the chin - at least publicly.

As for Brown, he must be a very worried man today. The old saying of "be careful what you wish for" is so appropriate in his case.

I don't think Nu Labour can survive another two years. Day by day I see shades of 1975 when prices under the then Labour government were going through the roof, the Unions were ruling the country and fuel prices were escalating out of control, due to a so-called "fuel shortage" at the time. We also suffered lower national speed limits. Thirty years on and we're going through the same thing again...

I noticed the various Nu Labour MPs being interviewed on TV were looking very worried, in fact, quite sick, especially Tessa Jowell. When she was interviewed by the TV reporters she actually reminded me of a frightened rabbit and I thought quite a few times she was going to burst into tears.

Now, lets have a General Election and get rid of the unelected Brown and this corrupt, evil government.

[quote][bold]P S Altery[/bold] wrote: Spot on CK - but good news, not only have the English people rejected Labour, and their miserable failed policies, but Boris Johnson kicked Red Ken out of London. Labour are you listening to the ordinary person on the street? The decent law abiding citizen? Nope, you never have, good riddance to badly organised rubbish! As you rightly say, Labour will tax tax tax, and fail to deliver. They will try to make our lives a misery. I say to Labour, let's make their lives a misery. [/quote] There are two by-elections coming up - Henley-on-Thames and also the late Gladys Dunwoody's ward (I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head). It will be interesting to see what happens there. I watched Boris Johnson become Mayor of London last night. He struck me as being genuine and sincere and I hope he does do a good job, even though Brown will make it as difficult as possible for him. On the other hand, I expected Red Ken to launch into a tirade - but he didn't. He took his defeat on the chin - at least publicly. As for Brown, he must be a very worried man today. The old saying of "be careful what you wish for" is so appropriate in his case. I don't think Nu Labour can survive another two years. Day by day I see shades of 1975 when prices under the then Labour government were going through the roof, the Unions were ruling the country and fuel prices were escalating out of control, due to a so-called "fuel shortage" at the time. We also suffered lower national speed limits. Thirty years on and we're going through the same thing again... I noticed the various Nu Labour MPs being interviewed on TV were looking very worried, in fact, quite sick, especially Tessa Jowell. When she was interviewed by the TV reporters she actually reminded me of a frightened rabbit and I thought quite a few times she was going to burst into tears. Now, lets have a General Election and get rid of the unelected Brown and this corrupt, evil government.

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adsinibiza, Wroughton/ibiza says...
4:18pm Sat 3 May 08

As much as I would like to see the back of this current labour government I cannot see them falling in the next two years as CK suggests.

This is a shame as the UK desperatley needs a change in Government. The Blair and Brown government has badly damaged the UK and will only make things worse over the next two years.

However what is even more of a shame is that none of the main oppostion parties are really offering an alternative - just more of the same old rubbish with a few changes around the edges.

What the country needs is a governement that offers real leadership and is prepared to tackle and confront problems like immigration and the cost of housing and extortionate levels of taxation head on.

To say that the next election will be all about Europe is also wrong - there are so many much more serious problems in the UK that I doubt Europe will be more than a sideline issue.

The major issues will be the basic issues such as affordable housing, getting the police to do their job and catch criminals rather than persecuting motorists, and restoring the Pension system that labour have ruined through over taxation.

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Cllr David Sammels, Swindon says...
5:33pm Sat 3 May 08

Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:
David, crystal balls are not my thing, which bit are you talking about.

That David Cameron and Boris don't get along? What on earth makes you think that? (Unless it is the crystal ball?)

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doug@homefarm, SN1 says...
7:02pm Sat 3 May 08

Posted by: Frontier(s) on 3:08am today
Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions of people. I find it obscene that some people here proudly state that they are followers of a man and political doctrine that was no better or worse than Hitler's Nazism. Good to see Boris win London - now watch as the government budget for London is slashed to make running the captial almost impossible for Boris, even though Stalin Brown bailed out Ken Livingstone with countless billions to fund his countless expensive mistakes.
Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions of people.

I find it obscene that some people here proudly state that they are followers of a man and political doctrine that was no better or worse than Hitler's Nazism.

Oi! I presume you're refering to me, exactly where did I say that I supported Stalin?

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doug@homefarm, SN1 says...
7:08pm Sat 3 May 08

Righto Big Mac and psaltry, If you cannot differentiate between Stalinism and Communism, I really cannot be arsed discussing it with you. Bloody hell even Blair understood that and he was an Anarcho-Syndicalist!

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
7:28pm Sat 3 May 08

David, It is no secret in the inner circle of political journalists and party lobbyists that Cameron considered Boris a loose cannon. I have also heard from these sources that Cameron really did not believe that Boris could win. The problem he now faces, is the one Tony Blair faced with Ken Livingstone (remember elected as an independent:, was that Boris, as was Ken, the most powerful man in London. If Boris messes up Cameron is 'slighted', if he succeeds then Cameron's judgement is questioned as to why Boris wasn't in the shadow cabinet. adsinibiza, Without wishing to sound rude, is it not apparent to you that all of what you have said is now influenced or directed buy the EU. If the Reform Treaty is ratified then we will see a virtual shift of power to the unelected EU Commission. Europol already exists although technically it should not. So Europe will be the biggest thing on the agenda the rest will fall into place behind it. So as I have said there really will be a start choice, UKIP will be the only party offering a Referendum on the Treaty ratified or not.

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P S Altery, Swindon says...
11:15pm Sat 3 May 08

doug@homefarm wrote:
Righto Big Mac and psaltry, If you cannot differentiate between Stalinism and Communism, I really cannot be arsed discussing it with you. Bloody hell even Blair understood that and he was an Anarcho-Syndicalist!

Course they are the same thing. Off you go you old fashioned reactionary. After all this is the 21st Century, and even the Chinese have ditched your 19th Century outlook. And quite rightly so. When will you understand that in a global economy the idea of the big , inefficient, bullying, state is over. Sorry son, you and your ideas are a think of the past

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Frontier(s), says...
1:04am Sun 4 May 08

Doug, you have said before, publically - on this forum - that you are a Stalinist and admire that philosophy.

Well, it's named after a man who killed millions in the name of his political doctrine.

Next you'll be telling us you admire the Nazis but weren't keen on their policies regarding the Jews.

YOU yourself have stated that you admire Stalinist principles. Those principles were founded on murder and the blood of millions of innocent people.

Still, your pathetic attempt to backtrack isn't surprising in the least.

BTW, do you have any idea how many 'working class' (ie, those you love but are not one of) died under communism in both the USSR and China (and still are?)

It's OK to be an idealist, but to openly support murderous, fascist regimes is inexcusable.

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amlorusso, Swindon says...
1:53am Sun 4 May 08

RFM,

So what's the difference between your "view" and spinning which other parties are repeatedly condemned of? Many politicians would like to know.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
8:20am Sun 4 May 08

amlorusso 'spin' is when you state a favourable conclusion based on debatable facts. I stated that UKIP pushed the lib dems into 8 of 11 fourth places, in percentage terms that made UKIP the 3rd largest party. Not spin. Both facts. To add to this UKIP also bucked the National trend in Swindon, as it has to be said did Labour, at least in regard to the Lib-Dems.
Cllr David Sammels Well it seems that at least one broad sheet agrees with me that Cameron didn't expect Boris to win. I guess my ear is closer to the Conservative ground than yours is Dave.

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Chav, North Swindon says...
1:43pm Sun 4 May 08

I think the canal cocked it up for Rod B.

http://www.swindonad
vertiser.co.uk/news/
regeneration/latest/
display.var.2209504.
0.0.php

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Cllr David Sammels, Swindon says...
2:37pm Sun 4 May 08

Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:
amlorusso 'spin' is when you state a favourable conclusion based on debatable facts. I stated that UKIP pushed the lib dems into 8 of 11 fourth places, in percentage terms that made UKIP the 3rd largest party. Not spin. Both facts. To add to this UKIP also bucked the National trend in Swindon, as it has to be said did Labour, at least in regard to the Lib-Dems.
Cllr David Sammels Well it seems that at least one broad sheet agrees with me that Cameron didn't expect Boris to win. I guess my ear is closer to the Conservative ground than yours is Dave.

There is a difference between "expecting" and "wanting" someone to win.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
5:45pm Sun 4 May 08

amlorusso, now this is spin from Councllor Sammels,There is a difference between "expecting" and "wanting" someone to win.

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amlorusso, Swindon says...
2:56am Mon 5 May 08

Robert,

"To add to this UKIP also bucked the National trend in Swindon, as it has to be said did Labour, at least in regard to the Lib-Dems."

What relevance does the results in other parts of the country have to UKIP's position in Swindon?

"Clearly making us the 3rd party in Swindon."

Not the 3rd party in the seats UKIP contested. Not the 3rd party in all of the seats contested. The 3rd party in Swindon.

Spin is also selecting facts, and only the facts that support your claim, ignoring other facts that do not support your claim.

You select the fact that in 8 out of 11 seats UKIP contested you pushed the Liberal Democrats into 4th place. You ignore the fact that UKIP have no seats and the Liberal democrats have three, winning one this election, and the total number of votes in the seats UKIP contested put the Liberal Democrats in 3rd place, from a proportional perspective, which can be used to analyse a party's overall ranking even if we don't have a PR system, because if more people voted for Party A than Party B, putting Part B before Party A in any sort of ranking wouldn't be a good first choice.

"As for spin I am merely stating that on the night had we stood in other wards, looking at the results where we didn't we could easily have doubled our 3rd place results."

To say the reverse, based on the idea if UKIP had stood in more seats is an estimate, which are not facts.

We are using different benchmarks to define what constitutes a party's place in the political rankings. I have made a case for why I think method you are using to determine such a ranking is wrong and you have a clear benefit from choosing this method over another. Labour has been accused of spin doing exactly the same thing - publishing a favorable interpretation in the media using only facts that support that interpretation, ignoring other facts.

So the information you are basing your analysis on are facts. By the method of analysis is not, they never are, which is where spin comes in.

"amlorusso, now this is spin from Councllor Sammels,There is a difference between "expecting" and "wanting" someone to win."

Favourable conclusion from debateable facts. I would agree with that. Spin also requires motive. Don't know the answer to that one in this case.

Robert, "To add to this UKIP also bucked the National trend in Swindon, as it has to be said did Labour, at least in regard to the Lib-Dems." What relevance does the results in other parts of the country have to UKIP's position in Swindon? "Clearly making us the 3rd party in Swindon." Not the 3rd party in the seats UKIP contested. Not the 3rd party in all of the seats contested. The 3rd party in Swindon. Spin is also selecting facts, and only the facts that support your claim, ignoring other facts that do not support your claim. You select the fact that in 8 out of 11 seats UKIP contested you pushed the Liberal Democrats into 4th place. You ignore the fact that UKIP have no seats and the Liberal democrats have three, winning one this election, and the total number of votes in the seats UKIP contested put the Liberal Democrats in 3rd place, from a proportional perspective, which can be used to analyse a party's overall ranking even if we don't have a PR system, because if more people voted for Party A than Party B, putting Part B before Party A in any sort of ranking wouldn't be a good first choice. "As for spin I am merely stating that on the night had we stood in other wards, looking at the results where we didn't we could easily have doubled our 3rd place results." To say the reverse, based on the idea if UKIP had stood in more seats is an estimate, which are not facts. We are using different benchmarks to define what constitutes a party's place in the political rankings. I have made a case for why I think method you are using to determine such a ranking is wrong and you have a clear benefit from choosing this method over another. Labour has been accused of spin doing exactly the same thing - publishing a favorable interpretation in the media using only facts that support that interpretation, ignoring other facts. So the information you are basing your analysis on are facts. By the method of analysis is not, they never are, which is where spin comes in. "amlorusso, now this is spin from Councllor Sammels,There is a difference between "expecting" and "wanting" someone to win." Favourable conclusion from debateable facts. I would agree with that. Spin also requires motive. Don't know the answer to that one in this case.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:07am Mon 5 May 08

To say the reverse, based on the idea if UKIP had stood in more seats is an estimate, which are not facts. I didn't say it was fact. Also the Lib-Dems did not win one, they retained, perhaps the safest seat in the borough. Stan was already a councillor having represented his ward since 1985. It also has to be said, that one of the seats we didn't push them into 4th place was a member of Stans's family as were two other second places they achieved, which is no surprise to me.

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Cllr David Sammels, Swindon says...
10:02am Mon 5 May 08

Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:
amlorusso, now this is spin from Councllor Sammels,There is a difference between "expecting" and "wanting" someone to win.

How on earth is that spin?

I want Scotland to win the Six Nations ever year, but I don't expect it!

You asserted above that David Cameron "hates" Boris, and gave no reason to indicate why that is the case.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
12:42pm Mon 5 May 08

Did you read the Sunday's. He set Boris up to fail, now he's left with the most powerful Tory in the country, and I suspect Boris won't forget what the party did to him. Happy days for Cameron, I don't think.

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Cllr David Sammels, Swindon says...
1:06pm Mon 5 May 08

Nobody set him up for a fall - the party set him up as a very viable candidate and the voluntary party make a herculean effort to get him elected - and it has paid off.

Quite regardless of the speculation of some Sunday columnists, you must be mad to think that we are anything other than over the moon to have a Conservative Mayor of London.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
2:10pm Mon 5 May 08

I'm not saying the run of the mill Tory isn't that doesn't follow that the leadership are. Boris has far more Charisma and personality than Cameron will ever have.

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Cllr David Sammels, Swindon says...
3:03pm Mon 5 May 08

That is not evidence that Cameron hates Boris, as you assert above. Boris also backed Cameron's bid for the party leadership from the start.

I have a whole host of friends who work in Parliament or for CCHQ and I haven't even heard a whisper of anything resembling the assertions you have made.

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amlorusso, Swindon says...
6:42pm Mon 5 May 08

Robert,

And now you are spinning the word "win". It may be a safe seat, but an election doesn't care who had it before, because it can change in a heartbeat, safe seats have been lost - Labour know that all to well in Bury this council election.

Like you I personally think this year's council election is a significant event for UKIP in Swindon. Like the Liberal Democrats, under the First Past the post system you don't have the critical mass yet to turn votes into large numbers of seats. Nationally UKIP increased it's councillors by about 3 if I remember, and an existing Conservative MP has decided to resign the Tory whip and join UKIP.

Outside of the 3 largest parties, Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrats I think your party is the only one that has any credibility Nationally. All the others are fringe parties that will go nowhere, I think your party has the potential to grow in our country, to do what the Liberal Democrats did to become an elected alternative to what used to be a 2 party system.

The similarities are striking. The parties that Liberal Democrats became split off from Labour, and I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, a large part of UKIP's membership are ex-Conservative.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
8:13pm Mon 5 May 08

amlorusso, you are correct in believing that many of us have previously voted Conservative. But it goes deeper than that. Many of us that have been around a few years have seen then the politics in the UK go from, 'ordinary people' standing for election, from all walks of life to professional politicians who have done nothing else, the bruisers like Prescott one can respect, someone hits you, you hit them back. politics and politicians now owe no allegiance to any party, they care only for themselves. That is why I joined UKIP, we want Britain to be great again, we want to control our borders, we want to decide who we trade with, who we don't, we want ethical policies, not the EU ethical policy that is currently saying to Africa, these are the rules take it or leave it. The EU are afraid the truth is getting out which is why the EU controlled media never tells the truth. UKIP will continue to do that. Hopefully the public will listen, if they don't Britain is 'NO MORE'.

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