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with 'SWINDON NEWS'
Canal would give town a big boost
1:29pm Tuesday 6th May 2008
Comments (61)
THE plan to build a canal through the centre of Swindon has been given the thumbs up by a business expert.
Paul Briggs, chief executive of the Thames Valley Chamber of Commerce Group, has said that a canal could provide a big boost to the town.
He welcomed the project as a key element in transforming Swindon's town centre into a leisure and visitor attraction, disposing of its dreary reputation.
He said: "Swindon has been perceived in a negative light, with many suggesting that the town lacks any special characteristics and this new development could be an ideal opportunity to change this.
"Constructed properly, and more importantly managed to a high standard, this development could significantly add to and improve the attractiveness of the town centre, creating a fantastic environment which both local people and visitors can enjoy."
Mr Briggs, pictured right, pointed to Reading as an example of a waterway scheme which had successfully revitalised a town centre.
He said: "During the late 1980s and early 1990s Reading's town centre was in dire need of re-development and improvement.
"Various schemes were put forward and eventually the Oracle project was agreed to be built in a run down area.
"It transformed the derelict eyesore of the Kennet and Avon canal into a striking visitor destination and has added to the attractiveness of the shopping centre.
"It would be a great pity if this idea of regeneration, making a difference to the town just as the railway did some 100 years earlier, was dismissed due to petty politics and misinformation, without the advantages being properly debated.
"For this reason the core funding, as well as all other details of the proposal, must be explained to Swindon's community. This needs to be done in an open forum with appropriate drawings and visuals.
"The important thing is that all the key stakeholders sign up to the fact that something needs to be done to attract people to live, socialise and shop in the town.
"These proposals are a start and the Chamber looks forward to being part of moving the debate forwards. This may well be a one off opportunity that will affect the future of the town for many years."
Mr Briggs' comments come on the back of fiery exchanges between political parties at the last council meeting.
After a heated debate in the council chambers it was decided that the council would look into the possibility of a canal in more detail, using the findings to put the matter to a public poll.
Your Say YourSwindon Advertiser
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
2:13pm Tue 6 May 08
"It transformed the derelict eyesore of the Kennet and Avon canal into a striking visitor destination and has added to the attractiveness of the shopping centre.
Hands Up, those people who go to the Oracle just to see the waterway? (Its actually the Kennet River which connects to the Canal.)
After a heated debate in the council chambers it was decided that the council would look into the possibility of a canal in more detail, using the findings to put the matter to a public poll.
According to the Review of the Halcrow Feasibility Study to the Council Cabinet back on 23rd January 2007 (Over a year ago), it was recommended that a full study was needed in conjunction with the Transport Plan. So why did it need a debate on 24th April 2008 to get the Council to agree to a more detailed study? Also where is the Transport Plan which the Review has said should have been delivered back in January 2008?
Quoted from Canal Feasibility Study Review to the Swindon Borough Council Cabinet 23rd January 2007.
10 CONCLUSION
10.1 A canal is technically feasible and deliverable, although it is not yet clear what the full costs might be without further investigation. What is clear is that this further work is likely to be worthwhile and will overlap with the work on the transport strategy.
10.2 In order to take this work forward to the next stage we recommend that a task group be set up by the Director of Planning and Transport strategy in consultation with the Cabinet Member for Economic Development, Regeneration and Development to;
i. Assess the value of the canal with or without a link to the wider network,
addressing the questions at para 7.9
ii. Produce an implementation plan, including resource needs
iii. Report back with an evidence base to support the proposed route or minor variations on this where this overcomes objections or enhances the value or viability of the route
10.3 This Group should work in parallel with, but linked to the work of the Transport Project Board. The timescale for completion is estimated as 9-12 months for a final report.
If it does go to a public vote, the public needs all the facts. Also in the review, it mentiones that British Waterways could adopt the maintenance of the canal but there should be investigation to see how much it will cost the Council IF they have to adopt it.
Swindon Council, make me believe this is a good idea with hard facts and figures instead of soundbites about the vision of Swindon please.
angry monkey, Swindon says...
2:14pm Tue 6 May 08
Yes its a good idea in some ways. Yes it would have benefits.
But it will take forever to build (10+years has been mentioned on here) and cause chaos in that period.
The cons outwiegh the pros for me.
Someone somewhere must have a more practical way of spending £50m on making Swindon a btter place.
emmylou83, Stratton says...
2:18pm Tue 6 May 08
Someone somewhere must have a more practical way of spending £50m on making Swindon a btter place.
I could spend the money :) probably wouldn't make Swindon a better place or be practical but i'd give it a go :)
Donkey, Swindon says...
2:45pm Tue 6 May 08
Oooh ... I feel so sad for even writing a comment on it!
steve-o, Swindon says...
2:46pm Tue 6 May 08
Tobz, says...
2:53pm Tue 6 May 08
What none of the pro comments ever seem to clarify though is the TIMESCALES. A canal connected to a canal network is around 17 years away! Pipedreams.
As for the regeneration... A TV screen and a new library does not equal a regenerated town centre. Neither does a load of pulled down buildings.
Al Smith, Swindon, UK says...
3:23pm Tue 6 May 08
I can see it ending up like the "big screen"... a bit of a disappointment...
Taxpower, Swinetown says...
3:37pm Tue 6 May 08
hypnotoad wrote:And how much will it cost to keep this canal nice and tidy? and why would it make swindon a much better place? I think it will make in a much smellier place
I am all for this canal, Swindon is going through a much needed redevelopment, putting its dirty and drab image behind, and is making positive changes for improvement. A canal in the town is a fantastic idea, and if managed properly can only be a good thing all round. Bring it on :)
Frontier(s), says...
3:46pm Tue 6 May 08
As this will take at least 10 years, discussing it now is all a bit pointless.
Somebody, somewhere, PLEASE just make a decision and stand by it. The council were happy enough to make the bottom of town a war zone by granting permission to allow nothing but pubs to open and have happily destroyed Old Town with numerous blocks of flats. I therefore find it hard to believe they're really too concerned about messing up the canal. As usual, most of the people who take the decision today will not be on the council once the thing's built anyway.
In the meantime, let's replace some of the many demolished buildings with something. Let's actually create and regenerate rather than knock down and forget.
Let's have a new music/event venue, not just a rehash of the Oasis.
Let's do something to attract quality shops and restaurants to the many existing empty premises in the town centre.
In short, let's get on with what should already be being done before we worry about high concept plans that will not come to fruition for over a decade.
Mick out West, West Swindon says...
3:48pm Tue 6 May 08
Scarlett, Swindon says...
3:56pm Tue 6 May 08
I get so fed up of the 'improvments' that go on in this town!
The amount of roads that have been widened, costing a fortune to do so, then erm narrowed again??? Why???
Does the council really have that much money and time on their hands that they can keep wasting our money time and time again?
The canal in theory sounds lovely, but the council wont maintain it, it will smell, be filled with rubbish in no time.
Sadly, more money wasted on something that they will probably fill in again, a year after completion.
daddyjimo2, Swindon says...
4:11pm Tue 6 May 08
It has been suggested that people will come from far and wide to see our new water feature.
If you build it they will come.....!!
This will make everyone (in the town centre) very rich apparently.
Going to be good for business apparently.
Cost nothing apparently.
Ease traffic apparently.
Transform our town apparently.
Taxi boats too and from work apparently.
Take my children into town to play by the crystal clear water.....
dream on..................
......
Robin Harris, Swindon says...
4:17pm Tue 6 May 08
It doesn't matter who you get. If the people don't want it then why do these canal dreamers keep trying to foist it on us.
Every one is aware that no amount of private money will be enough. It will still cost the council taxpayers in the end.
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
4:26pm Tue 6 May 08
The fact that the council sat on the feasibility study recommendations for a comprehensive study for a year. Which could have been longer if it wasn't for a motion being put forward in the last council meeting in April to abandon the project points to the inactivity that's annoying people.
I can understand the Canal enthusiasts preachings but not everyone are fond of canals. Unfortunately, the Canal trust and the Adver have become the Council's propaganda voicebox to batter the general public in to accepting this project without any hard facts and figures.
Yes, it MIGHT look nice. It MIGHT be a good attraction but at what cost to the taxpayer if British Waterways don't maintain it. I know that the minimum £52m will come from developers and interested parties but will they pay for the upkeep for an infinite period. My thought would be no, it's doesn't make good business sense.
Ianto, Swindon says...
4:28pm Tue 6 May 08
Everyone is so negative about the place but never comes up with any bright ideas. When someone does it is then shot down.
ThisYoungLady, Swindon says...
4:30pm Tue 6 May 08
angry monkey wrote:50m on cleaning out coate water.
here we go again. Yes its a good idea in some ways. Yes it would have benefits. But it will take forever to build (10+years has been mentioned on here) and cause chaos in that period. The cons outwiegh the pros for me. Someone somewhere must have a more practical way of spending £50m on making Swindon a btter place.
theres a perfectly good water feature in swindon that is left stagnent.
as for the cnal where is all the traffic going to go seeing as the canal is going to bring in tourist but has blocked off one of the main access routes.
cartwright, swindon says...
4:43pm Tue 6 May 08
well at least DarkAuror is thinking this through which is a good start
its interesting that he thinks the Adver is on our side because we think the Advertiser is giving far to much space to the letter writers that are against the canal.
Also the on line poll showed that things are going the canals way with a 36% vote for the canal and by far the highest of any of the five options.
this dispite someone thinking they could get away with voting a large number of times for a music venue.
this was easily stopped by the computer wizz kids at the paper.
The more we talk about this the clearer everything will become and eventually the people of the Town will decide if it whats a canal or not.
We in the canal trust want to see it come back through the town but if it does not then we will go around the town as first planned and Swindon will lose the chance to really make a statement to the world as Reading has done, and yes people do go to Reading just to see the canal I know because I was there last week and talked to those in the pub I was in about the canal without saying who I was.
Keep up the discussion folks even those of you against the canal are helping us to rebuild it ROY
daddyjimo2, Swindon says...
4:45pm Tue 6 May 08
how are they going to get here ? fly ?
perhaps we can have water sports centres with jetski-ing and scuba diving !!
will there be fish in it ?
perhaps we could have big game fishing trips.
perhaps we could link it to Bristol - then all the rovers can boat it up when they share our football ground.
Robin Harris, Swindon says...
4:59pm Tue 6 May 08
Forget the town centre. I've never understood some peoples preoccupation with a regenerated town centre. Why??? I like many others very rarely if ever go into the town centre. I can't see the point.
Al Smith, Swindon, UK says...
5:05pm Tue 6 May 08
The only honest poll carried out so far was the questioning of people in the town centre. That poll showed people weren't in favour of it. What happened when that was published - people started commenting that the right sort of members of the public weren't being asked.
People like my self who were born and raised here have seen so many hairbrained schemes that'll make Swindon the _______ centre of the universe. Then when they do implement it they balls it up.
Mumstheword, Walcot says...
5:19pm Tue 6 May 08
Frontier(s) wrote:Well said!
The reality is that nobody knows whether this idea would actually work or not until it's actually built. As this will take at least 10 years, discussing it now is all a bit pointless. Somebody, somewhere, PLEASE just make a decision and stand by it. The council were happy enough to make the bottom of town a war zone by granting permission to allow nothing but pubs to open and have happily destroyed Old Town with numerous blocks of flats. I therefore find it hard to believe they're really too concerned about messing up the canal. As usual, most of the people who take the decision today will not be on the council once the thing's built anyway. In the meantime, let's replace some of the many demolished buildings with something. Let's actually create and regenerate rather than knock down and forget. Let's have a new music/event venue, not just a rehash of the Oasis. Let's do something to attract quality shops and restaurants to the many existing empty premises in the town centre. In short, let's get on with what should already be being done before we worry about high concept plans that will not come to fruition for over a decade.
I Too Could Be a Councillor, Swindon says...
5:20pm Tue 6 May 08
THE plan to build a canal through the centre of Swindon has been given the thumbs up by a business expert.
I'm an expert, and so's my wife.... and my father, and my fater's father, and my father's father's father
HoneyPie, The Shire says...
5:28pm Tue 6 May 08
The canal area around the Oracle is a bit concretey and not a great attraction for Reading - it's just there.
I still think a large market area in the centre of Swindon would draw more shoppers to the town. A good, purpose-built, music venue would be another great people-magnet.
Don't get me wrong - I like canals. I just think it is madness to rebuild something like this from scratch...
Grumpy, Swindon says...
7:05pm Tue 6 May 08
Get some decent, intelligent and literate journalists and get out and find some decent news that is worth commenting on and won't be censored by the Adver Office Taliban.
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
7:18pm Tue 6 May 08
cartwright wrote:Good Evening Roy,
Hi Boy's and Girl's well at least DarkAuror is thinking this through which is a good start its interesting that he thinks the Adver is on our side because we think the Advertiser is giving far to much space to the letter writers that are against the canal. Also the on line poll showed that things are going the canals way with a 36% vote for the canal and by far the highest of any of the five options. this dispite someone thinking they could get away with voting a large number of times for a music venue. this was easily stopped by the computer wizz kids at the paper. The more we talk about this the clearer everything will become and eventually the people of the Town will decide if it whats a canal or not. We in the canal trust want to see it come back through the town but if it does not then we will go around the town as first planned and Swindon will lose the chance to really make a statement to the world as Reading has done, and yes people do go to Reading just to see the canal I know because I was there last week and talked to those in the pub I was in about the canal without saying who I was. Keep up the discussion folks even those of you against the canal are helping us to rebuild it ROY
The reason for my comment is because every fortnight we have a story from your goodself or an expert that says it COULD be a good idea. We've not heard from the Council about this apart the fiasco with Labour attempted motion.
To use your spin from the spot survey that the Adver did a few months ago where 66% of the public said that they didn't want a canal and you said that 33% still wanted it. Well 61% of the online voters DON'T the canal and want something else. It's interesting when you said there was vote rigging because once I voted for the Music Venue, I couldn't vote again. I guessing that the Canal Trust's Email list was used to great effect. I wonder what percentage of the list are from Swindon.
The problem I find is that the council had the Halcrow feasibility study since January 2007 and were forced to act on the recommendations only after Labour but in a motion to stop the project in April 2008. However, we're still waiting for the transport plan which I expect you are as well. I think once people will see the transport plan and under the costs to make the canal work (which as you have quoted and Halcrow study has said a minimum of £52m) then a clear picture of people's opinions will form.
I agree where you said that people should come in and see you. I've made my opinion based on your various Canal Trust websites and the public documents from SBC. Until there is hard facts and figures released to the public then my opinion is in the negative.
Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:13pm Tue 6 May 08
dindangdo, swindon says...
9:27pm Tue 6 May 08
SHEEPHEAD, SWINDON says...
9:38pm Tue 6 May 08
HER_IN_DOORS, Swindon says...
10:06pm Tue 6 May 08
Hi Ho Silver!, Swindon says...
10:20pm Tue 6 May 08
Amazing I have just come from Swindon Community Radio, and Stan (lib dems) mentioned the Canal and how the Libdems and Tories want a referendum. Obviously I pointed out it was my suggestion weeks before they got on the bandwagon, but yet again it rears it's head
Oh for god's sake get over yourself! Do you honestly think that suggesting a referendum on the matter is such an original idea that no-one could independently come up with the same thing? Do you think that all the other political parties spend hour anaylysing your postings here?
I think if anyone wants to verify that you are just like any other "politician" they just need to look at your uninformed comments on Saturday regarding the TV screen on the side of the car park in town. Instead of just admitting that you posted a judgment despite obviously having no local knowledge you just dug yourself into a deeper a deeper hole.
I won't even mention your grasp of statistical analysis which makes you seem to think that the UKIP party is the third party in Swindon! (oh wait, I just did!)
komadori, Swindon says...
10:39pm Tue 6 May 08
lleychamber.co.uk/ne
ws/detail.asp?AId=76
6), but crucially misses out the first paragraph, which makes clear how limited Mr Briggs' support is.
The Swindon Chamber of Commerce has welcomed proposals to debate the redevelopment of Swindon’s town centre through the creation of a focal waterway. The plans hope to attract people to Swindon by transforming the town centre into a leisure and visitor attraction, disposing of what some believe to be a dreary reputation.
Supporting the debate is far less than supporting the canal plan itself.
paul_swindon, says...
10:48pm Tue 6 May 08
Hi Ho Silver!, Swindon says...
11:46pm Tue 6 May 08
The canal is a great idea. The issue is whether it is deliverable.
So who are you to decide that??
Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
6:59am Wed 7 May 08
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
8:33am Wed 7 May 08
paul_swindon wrote:I agree Councillor Bluh said the taxpayer will not pay for the canal. This money will be found from Lottery grants and money from developers. It was also noted from the Canal Trust that if the canal didn't go ahead through the town centre then the money would not be put to other projects. In other words, it's £52m for the canal and not for other projects.
The canal is a great idea. The issue is whether it is deliverable. Rod Bluh has made it clear that the taxpayer will not be paying for it if it ever happens as the council don't have that sort of money and if they did it would be spent on priorities like schools etc. This idea is about a vision for a better town which to my knowledge nobody else is putting forward. Other towns succeed with these projects because they have the vision to succeed. I am sick to the back teeth of everyone pulling down ideas just because they can't take the trouble to get their heads round it or expect all the answers just like that. The only reason there has been so much talk about it at present is that Labour disgracefully tried to make political capital out of it and seemingly failed miserably which is exactly what they deserved. Thank you Rod Bluh, thank you Council for at last trying to do some good for Swindon. Do not be put off by a few who like nothing better to whinge when they have no ideas of thier own.
In the study review document to the council, an assumption was made that British Waterways will maintain the canal when it's completed. However, if British Waterways don't maintain then it will Swindon taxpayers who will do.
It's interesting to see that Gloucester is going to get their own Outlet village. As this is one of Swindon's selling points for tourists, I believe that the New Swindon Company and the Council need to start pushing planning applications through or we will fall further behind other big towns and cities.
Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
8:53am Wed 7 May 08
potluck, swindon says...
9:02am Wed 7 May 08
Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:15am Wed 7 May 08
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
9:15am Wed 7 May 08
Interesting, I didn't know this but Coate Water was actually the reservoir to top up the original Wilts & Berks canal.
Al Smith, Swindon, UK says...
9:17am Wed 7 May 08
Where will the traffic go, cause it can't be disappeared by the traffic fairies? How will people get to the Farnsby St car parks if it's dug to get the canal from its old route to the new one?
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
9:34am Wed 7 May 08
This is a big question which will make or break the canal. The Transport plan that is long overdue still hasn't been delivered. From what I can see is that Park Lane/Church Place from the direction of the Outlet Village and Kingshill Rd/Bath Rd will take up the traffic diverted from Faringdon Rd.
SBC, when will the Transport Plan be delivered?
potluck, swindon says...
9:37am Wed 7 May 08
The regeneration of Swindon with the canal, will only lead to the heritage again being torn down as the council did in the 70's and 80's. We have not learnt that the surrounding cities have fine architecture, facilities and thus are more interesting
Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
10:23am Wed 7 May 08
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
10:57am Wed 7 May 08
Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:Which comes down to the Transport Report being delivered. If as the last Council meeting suggests that only now the Council are going to commission a full study on the Canal, then this will delay the Tranport Plan as one of the recommendation in the review of the Halcrow Study was to work the Canal in to the Transport Plan.
This debate is sadly going no where fast, like the regeneration. Lets just have the Referendum and put this to bed one way or the other, because forgive me for saying so but how can any other regeneration take place until this very major project is decided.
I agree that the whole debate unless there something more concrete to discuss about then this subject should be parked until the Council has something to deliver. Having articles about how good it COULD be to the town centre just winds people up.
However, I do have one final question for Roy Cartwright when he returns to this forum.
Your original plan was to route the canal through the Front Garden until the Council suggested to look at the possibility of going through the town.
Did you considered routing the canal through the Town Centre in your original plans? If you did, why was the plans changed so it went around the town?
Al Smith, Swindon, UK says...
11:06am Wed 7 May 08
Mind you going down Westcott Place just makes it worse.
Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:29am Wed 7 May 08
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
11:34am Wed 7 May 08
Al Smith wrote:Just basing my findings on the Halcrow Study on the SBC website. It had a map with the route and the possible bridges that would be needed.
DarkAuror, ah right I'm sure I saw a map somewhere that showed it going down Farnsby St. Mind you going down Westcott Place just makes it worse.
If it helps, the report can be found on the SBC website under;
- Click on Council and Democracy,
- click on Committee Meetings,
- click on Cabinet Meetings,
- click on Browse Meetings and Agendas,
- click on 23 Jan 2008 6.30pm
and it's item 111.
Or look under the Environment and Leisure Overview Committee for 21/03/2007 meeting and it's item 54
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
11:35am Wed 7 May 08
Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:And no answers!
DA as I have repeatedly said far to many unanswered questions.
Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:39am Wed 7 May 08
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
11:46am Wed 7 May 08
Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:55am Wed 7 May 08
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
12:08pm Wed 7 May 08
Al Smith, Swindon, UK says...
12:40pm Wed 7 May 08
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
1:12pm Wed 7 May 08
Al Smith wrote:I know what you mean, so much for tranparency.
Cheers DarkAuror, so much for the council making it easy to find things! I did do a search but never managed to find it.
I was watching CSI Miami a few weeks ago and it mentioned how councils "hide" public notices and information either on Swindon notices on telephone poles OR deep in their websites.
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
1:12pm Wed 7 May 08
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
1:25pm Wed 7 May 08
DarkAuror wrote:hmm, disregard swindon notice.
Al Smith wrote: Cheers DarkAuror, so much for the council making it easy to find things! I did do a search but never managed to find it.I know what you mean, so much for tranparency. I was watching CSI Miami a few weeks ago and it mentioned how councils "hide" public notices and information either on Swindon notices on telephone poles OR deep in their websites.
cartwright, swindon says...
2:34pm Wed 7 May 08
We have a protected route around the town.
We also talked to the New Swindon Company some years ago about coming back through the town but they made it clear they did not think much of the idea.
When the Council approached us and said they would like to discuss it again we were over the moon but as we have said so many times we are only talking about it so far.
There are lots of answers needed before any thing possitive gan take place
We keep saying the traffic problem has to be solved first other wise its a no goer.
My point of view on this is to say to the Council stop seeing the canal as another problem to the traffic and instead turn the idea upside down and look at the canal as part of the solution to the traffic problem
Its amazing how things look different from a opposite point of view you shopuld all try it sometime.
After 40 years in the trade union movement I found this the best way to solving just about every problem that came my way.
Dark Auror If you would like to know more about Coat Water and indeed the full history of the canal in Swindon I have made a D.V.D called a Journey through time in Swindon and its on sale in the shop for £7 some members of the public liked it so much they paid up to £25 for a copy. all proceeds to the canal trust of corse come in and get acopy you will be amazed at what you do not know about Swindon. ROY
angry monkey, Swindon says...
3:03pm Wed 7 May 08
DarkAuror wrote:Swindon Council got mentioned on CSI Miami? Fantastic!
DarkAuror wrote:hmm, disregard swindon notice.Al Smith wrote: Cheers DarkAuror, so much for the council making it easy to find things! I did do a search but never managed to find it.I know what you mean, so much for tranparency. I was watching CSI Miami a few weeks ago and it mentioned how councils "hide" public notices and information either on Swindon notices on telephone poles OR deep in their websites.
It wouldnt have happened under labour.
DarkAuror, Swindon says...
4:03pm Wed 7 May 08
angry monkey wrote:And that why I wish that you could edit your own comments after they've been posted! ;0)
DarkAuror wrote:Swindon Council got mentioned on CSI Miami? Fantastic! It wouldnt have happened under labour.DarkAuror wrote:hmm, disregard swindon notice.Al Smith wrote: Cheers DarkAuror, so much for the council making it easy to find things! I did do a search but never managed to find it.I know what you mean, so much for tranparency. I was watching CSI Miami a few weeks ago and it mentioned how councils "hide" public notices and information either on Swindon notices on telephone poles OR deep in their websites.
Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:38pm Wed 7 May 08
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hypnotoad, swindon says...
2:10pm Tue 6 May 08
Bring it on :)