'Smoking ban is killing traditional pubs' (From Swindon Advertiser)

Frontier(s), says...
9:30am Tue 1 Jul 08

While the smoking ban was always going to hit the pub trade, it's been unfortunate that it was timed at the same time as the supermarkets reducing alcohol prices even further and just as the credit crunch/recession started to kick in.

Things ARE bad though. Pubs in the town centre and Old Town are boarded up, with little chance of re-opening. The pubs that are open are seem to feel they must compete on price (which is almost impossible for anyone other than large chains such as Weatherspoons) and as we move into some nicer weather people are more inclined to stay at home for BBQs or are away on holiday.

If it wasn't for the Welfare State ensuring that those on benefits have enough money to sit around drinking in the cheap pubs all day long, it'd be a very, very hard time for landlords.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:45am Tue 1 Jul 08

As with most things with the smoking ban, it's a matter of how you quantify things. Reality is that over 1800 pubs in England and Wales have closed in the last 12 months a nearly 9 fold increase on the 200 or so that closed in 2006 and even less in 2005. There will be those who will no doubt post, good riddance, because they hate smoking and smokers. Would they still say that if the Government chose to ban tobacco, and continue their attack on alcohol. The Pub sector directly contributes £30 billion a year to the exchequer and that doesn't include tax on company profits which probably will double that figure, about 15% of GDP. However aside from the economic impact we are told this is health motivated. Why is it then that it fails miserably. In Ireland where there has been a ban since 2004, when smoking levels had fallen to 21% of the population, the official Irish Government figure show smoking levels have gone up 8% to 29%. Levels of smuggling are at record levels, which tends to indicate even more consumption. In Scotland it was claimed one year on, by a piece of research, which has never been published that admissions for Heart Attacks had gone down by 17%. What was published however 3 months later was the official NHS Scotland Hospital admissions by category figures, which showed a drop of 8% for HA, a good figure you may think anyway, until it is pointed out that the previous year before the ban the drop was 10%. In England the claim, and that is all it is, because yet again no detail has been published is a drop of 40% clearly an absurdity, as any honest clinician would tell you. So not only are bans destroying business, it is not reducing consumption, which by definition means increased smoking in other places, (33% in the home). As I have always said, proper ventilation and filtration solves the problem without the need for a ban. And for the records I know of at least 7 pubs which are currently boarded up with the Swindon Licensing area.

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Frontier(s), says...
10:05am Tue 1 Jul 08

RFM, some good points there. Unfortunately they're rendered almost impossible to read by your bizarre refusal to hit the 'return' key now and again to insert paragraph breaks.

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Casual Observer, Swindon says...
10:08am Tue 1 Jul 08

Very well put RFM - as much as I dislike smoking and find pubs generally much more pleasant places now, I'm saddened to see two of my local pubs now boarded up.

Can't help thinking that the price of beer has something to do with it though. £3.20 for a pint of bitter in the Beehinve is just too much. It might be a 'cultural haven' but down the road it's £1.78 without the tired old blues band.

I'd go round the 'hive twice as often if Andy's price promise wasn't; "Find a more expensive pint within a ten mile radius and I'll match it"

That's taking the p!ss

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Peeved, Swindon says...
10:12am Tue 1 Jul 08

Not too interested in commenting on this re-hash of an article.
How about allowing us to comment on the story "Anyone Fancy A Free Trip To The Seaside" Free to single parent families and couples on social security benefits.
Is this a joke??!!

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
10:18am Tue 1 Jul 08

Casual, I have no personal knowledge of the pub, but what has to be remembered is many of these pubs are leaseholds owned by companies like Enterprise and Punch. The rents are extortionate, they charge over the odds for beer supply and the tenant is required to maintain the property. Pubs like Wetherspoons and other managed estates are cushioned in large part by their buying power. You will find that JDW will be making twice the profit per pint that the Beehive was, even at their lower price level, so yes you are benefiting but not at the expense of the pubco, at the expense of the traditional pub.
I did point out to the ADV that the poll is not exactly designed to give a representative view. There should be a third category. Those who believe pubs should provide ventilated smoking rooms to accommodate their smoking customers. Something that 65% of the population have said in the ONS Household Survey 04, 05 and 06.

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Casual Observer, Swindon says...
10:18am Tue 1 Jul 08

Peeved wrote:
Not too interested in commenting on this re-hash of an article.
How about allowing us to comment on the story "Anyone Fancy A Free Trip To The Seaside" Free to single parent families and couples on social security benefits.
Is this a joke??!!

Sounds like a great idea - as Cliff once said *everybody needs a summer holiday*

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dc, swindon says...
10:28am Tue 1 Jul 08

well all i can say is that my local The Clifton is so much nicer now there is no smoking and its great not to have to wash clothes/hair everytime you nip for a pint now.

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Casual Observer, Swindon says...
10:29am Tue 1 Jul 08

Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:
Casual, I have no personal knowledge of the pub, but what has to be remembered is many of these pubs are leaseholds owned by companies like Enterprise and Punch. The rents are extortionate, they charge over the odds for beer supply and the tenant is required to maintain the property. Pubs like Wetherspoons and other managed estates are cushioned in large part by their buying power. You will find that JDW will be making twice the profit per pint that the Beehive was, even at their lower price level, so yes you are benefiting but not at the expense of the pubco, at the expense of the traditional pub.
I did point out to the ADV that the poll is not exactly designed to give a representative view. There should be a third category. Those who believe pubs should provide ventilated smoking rooms to accommodate their smoking customers. Something that 65% of the population have said in the ONS Household Survey 04, 05 and 06.

I think you'll find the only thing maintained in the Beehive is the tangy smell of urine in the toilets.

The George on Eastcott hill has a 'smoke box' out the back, cheaper beer, nice toilets and I for one would rather line his pocket.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
10:41am Tue 1 Jul 08

Casual, as I said I did not know the pub, merely offering an explanation based on the 'norm' in the trade. Everyone has their own ideas about what they like. DC, I've always found that a strange argument, I only ever wear my clothes once before washing and wash or shower twice a day. Having said that effective ventilation/filtrati
on would have removed that smell, now you are jsut left with the lingering smell of body odour, cheap perfume, Air fresheners, cooking smells etc. All things masked by tobacco smoke smell. But each to their own.

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Maiden, Swindon says...
10:43am Tue 1 Jul 08

I have to say, as a non smoker it is much nicer now to go out to any pub in town and not wake up the next day with the smell of stale tobacco in my hair and clothes. I was out on Saturday night, and the pubs I went into all had decent outdoor areas for smokers to use and the trade seemed as it has always been.

I don't inflict any of my bad habits on others so I don't expect it done to me, thanks. If I want to breathe in toxic waste, I'd go and work near the bus station.

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Grimaldi, The Big Top says...
10:46am Tue 1 Jul 08

Yes, why cant we comment on the free summer holidays story, webteam!!

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dc, swindon says...
10:46am Tue 1 Jul 08

RFM - so you'd slip on a pair of jeans for one evening and then wash them?

Maybe its me then.

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Casual Observer, Swindon says...
10:48am Tue 1 Jul 08

I agree with dc - shower and clean clothes every day but at no point do I want to render that a waste of time by smelling like an ashtray just because I fancied a beer.

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emmylou83, Stratton says...
10:55am Tue 1 Jul 08

dc wrote:
RFM - so you'd slip on a pair of jeans for one evening and then wash them? Maybe its me then.

I never wear the same clothes twice without washing them first.

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dc, swindon says...
10:57am Tue 1 Jul 08

EL83 - so wearing jeans to the pub for an hour requires washing?

i am clearly filthy.

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emmylou83, Stratton says...
10:59am Tue 1 Jul 08

dc wrote:
EL83 - so wearing jeans to the pub for an hour requires washing? i am clearly filthy.

dc - let the record show you said it not me :o)
I'm just a clean freak obviously

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:00am Tue 1 Jul 08

I think you are missing the point. Remove the smell you remove the objection. There are cheap efficient systems on the market that can remove 99.97% of all air born particulates including the content of tobacco smoke, the air left if far cleaner than outside air. Walking along any town centre that allows traffic is far more polluted than pubs that allowed smoking. Waiting at a bus stop exposes you to far more toxins. The list is endless but HMG go for soft targets. There are many LA's who are failing the WHO guidelines on air pollution but we hear little of that. How is Swindon doing in that regard, does anyone know.? You can escape pub pollution by not going, you can't escape environmental pollution, unless of course you live in a bubble.

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PaulD, says...
11:02am Tue 1 Jul 08

It used to be the case that if you popped to the pub of a lunchtime, you would have to go back to work stinking of dirty fags. Now that isn't a problem.

I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly don't have the option of a shower and a change of clothes during my lunch break.

As for daily showers - I too have 2, but would have to have 3 if I went out for the evening, as another shower on returning hom was necessary to get rid of the pukingly awful smell that smokers seem to like.

RFM - you keep harping on about filtration systems, air con etc. Are these free to install and run? If not, then surely they just add to your overheads. Will the additional costs be passed on to just the smokers who would have necessitated their use in the first place?

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:03am Tue 1 Jul 08

BY the way, I don't wear jeans, I think on middle aged and older men they look shall we say, strange.

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emmylou83, Stratton says...
11:07am Tue 1 Jul 08

Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:
BY the way, I don't wear jeans, I think on middle aged and older men they look shall we say, strange.

Hahah I have to say first time my dad wore jeans trying to recapture days gone by I think it was odd but he's 52 and now I've managed to get him into decent jeans he doesn't look as you say strange - now if i only i could stop him tucking his t-shirt into them he'd be deemed fit to go out in public with :o)

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dc, swindon says...
11:09am Tue 1 Jul 08

RFM - will UKIP identify an age where jean usage will be outlawed? Or will you wait for the EU to decide on something and then demand the opposite?

At 30 hopefully i am ok for a couple more years

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:11am Tue 1 Jul 08

Paul, most of these units are free standing so there is no installation cost. As for the cost to run. The equivalent of a 60 watt bulb. for a room of 60 square metres they can cost as little as £100. They have been approved by Asthma Societies world wide as benefiting suffers and also by the British Allergy Association. The Government consistently refused to look at the evidence Freedom to Choose and others presented to them. What readers have to remember is that HMG signed a deal with Big D that in return for free 'drugs' big D would get their smoking ban. ASH and organisations like them have been funded by Big D for years. ASH's crowning glory on their own admission ( Deborah Arnott Guardian interview) conned the Government into believing passive smoking was harmful, she used the words 'confidence trick'.

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angry monkey, Swindon says...
11:11am Tue 1 Jul 08

As with most things in life, choice is the key to allow everyone (ok, most people) to be happy.

Sadly this is no longer the case in the UK in 2008

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angry monkey, Swindon says...
11:12am Tue 1 Jul 08

As with most things in life, choice is the key to allow everyone (ok, most people) to be happy.

Sadly this is no longer the case in the UK in 2008

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Casual Observer, Swindon says...
11:12am Tue 1 Jul 08

emmylou83 wrote:

dc wrote:
EL83 - so wearing jeans to the pub for an hour requires washing? i am clearly filthy.
dc - let the record show you said it not me :o)
I'm just a clean freak obviously

a clean freak that smokes?

Don't kid yourself

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angry monkey, Swindon says...
11:13am Tue 1 Jul 08

And RFM makes an excellent point about pollution being much more harmful than 2nd hand smoke.

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emmylou83, Stratton says...
11:14am Tue 1 Jul 08

Casual Observer wrote:

emmylou83 wrote:
dc wrote: EL83 - so wearing jeans to the pub for an hour requires washing? i am clearly filthy.
dc - let the record show you said it not me :o) I'm just a clean freak obviously
a clean freak that smokes? Don't kid yourself

I don't smoke LOL at what point did I say I smoked??? Did I miss something???

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:16am Tue 1 Jul 08

dc be careful what you wish for the EU are capable of anything. Mind you they are not happy bunnies today the Poles, have said they will not ratify the treaty yet, their President rightly said what is the point, it can't go ahead without the Irish. Perhaps our Gordon could follow suit after all he fervently believes that Polish workers are an asset (which some are) to the UK. As for the age for any clothes, it's a matter of personal choice, at the moment.

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malkym, says...
11:19am Tue 1 Jul 08

Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:
Casual, as I said I did not know the pub, merely offering an explanation based on the 'norm' in the trade. Everyone has their own ideas about what they like. DC, I've always found that a strange argument, I only ever wear my clothes once before washing and wash or shower twice a day. Having said that effective ventilation/filtrati on would have removed that smell, now you are jsut left with the lingering smell of body odour, cheap perfume, Air fresheners, cooking smells etc. All things masked by tobacco smoke smell. But each to their own.

RFM -you are once again banging the Ventilation/filtrati
on drum in your attempt to justify smoking being allowed in pubs -wrongly in my opinion as smoke will then drift across and up towards wherever these extractors are fitted.

It has also been my experience and believe me I've got plenty, of frequenting and working in smoke filled loca licenced premises where switching on the so called ventilation was about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

I remain unconvinced that any landlord who is allegedly "feeling the pinch" in todays terms would spend what would have to be a fair amount of money to purchase an effective unit that would do the job and we would thus be back to square one with the pull string Vent Axia on the wall doing diddly squat in terms of extracting noxious fumes. As other posters have commented it is an absolute joy to be able to walk in and out of licensed premises without reeking of the weed.

Whinging landlords need to be more innovative in attracting punters away from the goggle box and the ubiquitous quizzes, singalongs, theme nights etc are all things that work to varying degrees - I was in a sunny establishment in Lydiard M the other Monday evening and the place was rammed with quizzers - that and the excellent food were packing them in - so it can be done without being dependant on the dreaded tobacco - I'd sooner smell a sizzling steak than a Marlboro' light any day!

[quote][bold]Robert Feal-Martinez[/bold] wrote: Casual, as I said I did not know the pub, merely offering an explanation based on the 'norm' in the trade. Everyone has their own ideas about what they like. DC, I've always found that a strange argument, I only ever wear my clothes once before washing and wash or shower twice a day. Having said that effective ventilation/filtrati on would have removed that smell, now you are jsut left with the lingering smell of body odour, cheap perfume, Air fresheners, cooking smells etc. All things masked by tobacco smoke smell. But each to their own.[/quote] RFM -you are once again banging the Ventilation/filtrati on drum in your attempt to justify smoking being allowed in pubs -wrongly in my opinion as smoke will then drift across and up towards wherever these extractors are fitted. It has also been my experience and believe me I've got plenty, of frequenting and working in smoke filled loca licenced premises where switching on the so called ventilation was about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. I remain unconvinced that any landlord who is allegedly "feeling the pinch" in todays terms would spend what would have to be a fair amount of money to purchase an effective unit that would do the job and we would thus be back to square one with the pull string Vent Axia on the wall doing diddly squat in terms of extracting noxious fumes. As other posters have commented it is an absolute joy to be able to walk in and out of licensed premises without reeking of the weed. Whinging landlords need to be more innovative in attracting punters away from the goggle box and the ubiquitous quizzes, singalongs, theme nights etc are all things that work to varying degrees - I was in a sunny establishment in Lydiard M the other Monday evening and the place was rammed with quizzers - that and the excellent food were packing them in - so it can be done without being dependant on the dreaded tobacco - I'd sooner smell a sizzling steak than a Marlboro' light any day!

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Casual Observer, Swindon says...
11:27am Tue 1 Jul 08

emmylou83 wrote:

Casual Observer wrote:

emmylou83 wrote:
dc wrote: EL83 - so wearing jeans to the pub for an hour requires washing? i am clearly filthy.
dc - let the record show you said it not me :o) I'm just a clean freak obviously
a clean freak that smokes? Don't kid yourself
I don't smoke LOL at what point did I say I smoked??? Did I miss something???

Yes.. this

Posted by: emmylou83, Stratton on 3:01pm Mon 7 Apr 08

i'll have a cig, just had a job interview from hell :o(

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Balony, Swindon says...
11:29am Tue 1 Jul 08

dc wrote:
well all i can say is that my local The Clifton is so much nicer now there is no smoking and its great not to have to wash clothes/hair everytime you nip for a pint now.

Not sure about nicer but the Clifton is always quiet now! Let's hope that it's still open this time next year?!

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emmylou83, Stratton says...
11:29am Tue 1 Jul 08

Casual Observer wrote:

emmylou83 wrote:
Casual Observer wrote:
emmylou83 wrote:
dc wrote: EL83 - so wearing jeans to the pub for an hour requires washing? i am clearly filthy.
dc - let the record show you said it not me :o) I'm just a clean freak obviously
a clean freak that smokes? Don't kid yourself
I don't smoke LOL at what point did I say I smoked??? Did I miss something???
Yes.. this Posted by: emmylou83, Stratton on 3:01pm Mon 7 Apr 08 i'll have a cig, just had a job interview from hell :o(

oh that I gave up in like february could've done with one that day though that interview was evil!!! although nice to know you're taking an interest in my life.

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Gentle Ben, Swindon says...
11:30am Tue 1 Jul 08

Smoking is not the main reason pubs are closing down but it's does makes for a good excuse, the reason pubs are closing down is because the cost of a pint is far too high and no one has money to be wasting anymore, I used to enjoy going to the pub, but now I can go and buy a 4 pack of beer for £5 from the supermarket and sit in the garden, or go and pay around £3 for one pint, it's becoming more expensive then petrol and that comes from the bottom of the sea!

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Casual Observer, Swindon says...
11:34am Tue 1 Jul 08

emmylou83 wrote:

Casual Observer wrote:

emmylou83 wrote:
Casual Observer wrote:
emmylou83 wrote:
dc wrote: EL83 - so wearing jeans to the pub for an hour requires washing? i am clearly filthy.
dc - let the record show you said it not me :o) I'm just a clean freak obviously
a clean freak that smokes? Don't kid yourself
I don't smoke LOL at what point did I say I smoked??? Did I miss something???
Yes.. this Posted by: emmylou83, Stratton on 3:01pm Mon 7 Apr 08 i'll have a cig, just had a job interview from hell :o(
oh that I gave up in like february could've done with one that day though that interview was evil!!! although nice to know you're taking an interest in my life.

Only when I don't have sock drawer to re-arrange.

Anyway, I'm done with tit-for-tat smoking arguments, glad to hear you gave it up though.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:35am Tue 1 Jul 08

Gentle man, you must be shopping in an expensive supermarket, try 24 cans for £8. That aside,
malkyman, I'd sooner smell a sizzling steak than a Marlboro' light any day!

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Russ The Manc, Swindon says...
11:35am Tue 1 Jul 08

Casual Observer do you keep a file of all Emz postings, its a bit worrying how quickly you found that.

I am like most on here now enjoy smoke free bars/pubs RFM it does not matter wether new ventilation systems etc work or not.The Government are not going bto go backwards on this get used to it..

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Catti, Swindon says...
11:42am Tue 1 Jul 08

As a smoker, I still prefer the pubs now that they are smoke free! I have no objection to going outside for a cigarette, and tbh find that the attitude of most of the people I encounter when doing that.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:42am Tue 1 Jul 08

Sorry pressed wrong but. So you are not worried about the carcinogens given off from the cooking of the sizzling steak then. The price of beer in pubs in general has always been significantly more expensive than supermarkets, but when the cheap pubs 'Wetherspoons' etc see a down turn in sales of 14% I think you can safely say the common factor is the smoking no amount of ostrich syndrome will alter that. As for justifying ventilation to allow smoking in pubs, I merely point out the reality that this thread proves. Not one mention of harm, except from me. The problem is the smell therefore remove that you remove the problem. You also show your lack of understanding of modern ventilation/filtrati
on, systems of negative air pressure remove smoke drift. The no smoking areas remain completely smoker free and the smoking areas 99.97% smoke free. Facts are Facts look it up for yourself. Why would HMG spend hundreds of thousands of pounds of public money in Government Buildings including hospitals if they didn't work?

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emmylou83, Stratton says...
11:42am Tue 1 Jul 08

Casual Observer do you keep a file of all Emz postings, its a bit worrying how quickly you found that.

He loves me like yeti does :o)

Only when I don't have sock drawer to re-arrange.

Anyway, I'm done with tit-for-tat smoking arguments, glad to hear you gave it up though.

Oh I'm faaaaar more entertaining than a sock drawer I;m sure hehehe
I gave up coz I didnt enjoy it anymore, it was pure addiction and I didnt like it so I gave up wasn't easy and anyone who says it is lies!!! I have no problem with the smoking ban first few times I went out it was strange and the smell has never bothered me even now, Its a shame pubs are closing I'm out in town this weekend and it'll be interesting to see how things are.

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Just A Thought, says...
11:47am Tue 1 Jul 08

Hmmm very similar posts on here every time this subject comes up. So here is my two pence worth. I smoked for years, then I gave up (before the ban) then I started again. Points I have noticed
Smoking does stink, its awful and should never be inflicted on those that dont smoke.
Filtration systems would not work, unless a fortune of tax payers money was spent on inspectors and enforcers to ensure the correct amount of clean air was in every pub at all times
The main reason pubs are going out of business is not the ban its the extortionate prices. You can sit in the back garden and sup till your hearts content for a quarter of the price.
Whilst it may be nicer to go into pubs now the ban is in place, how many extra people are now using pubs because of the ban? I am a regular pub user so Ill answer my own question there are no extra drinkers coming out to play, just anti smokers that are happier which is fine but not evidence that the ban is a good thing.
I feel for landlords, a very English way of life (going down the local) is going down the pan. Think of all the three main soaps loved for years Emmerdale, Eastenders and Coronation Street what do they all have in common? A local and I bet most people can name all three.
In short, its not the ban, its the prices.

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Casual Observer, Swindon says...
11:48am Tue 1 Jul 08

Russ The Manc wrote:
Casual Observer do you keep a file of all Emz postings, its a bit worrying how quickly you found that.

I am like most on here now enjoy smoke free bars/pubs RFM it does not matter wether new ventilation systems etc work or not.The Government are not going bto go backwards on this get used to it..

Lol - one word.. Google

Nothing is forgotten on the internet

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soapy, rainworth says...
11:53am Tue 1 Jul 08

Maiden wrote:
I have to say, as a non smoker it is much nicer now to go out to any pub in town and not wake up the next day with the smell of stale tobacco in my hair and clothes. I was out on Saturday night, and the pubs I went into all had decent outdoor areas for smokers to use and the trade seemed as it has always been. I don't inflict any of my bad habits on others so I don't expect it done to me, thanks. If I want to breathe in toxic waste, I'd go and work near the bus station.

It is good to see people express their views however I wonder if you intended implying that you don't shower before going to bed and that you only wash your clothes because of smokers.

I am sure that this not the case but this is how your comment reads.

finally every time you step outside the amount of carcenogens, the levels of CO and Carbon dioxide from traffic alone are so lethal that if you stood beside every smoker in the world you would actually be safer! please feel free to do some research into traffic emmisions and compare them to cigarette smoke.

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emmylou83, Stratton says...
11:57am Tue 1 Jul 08

Casual Observer wrote:

Russ The Manc wrote: Casual Observer do you keep a file of all Emz postings, its a bit worrying how quickly you found that. I am like most on here now enjoy smoke free bars/pubs RFM it does not matter wether new ventilation systems etc work or not.The Government are not going bto go backwards on this get used to it..
Lol - one word.. Google Nothing is forgotten on the internet

Oh dear I'm sure that can't be good, you googled me? you actually googled me?? hahaha oh how funny

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Catti, Swindon says...
12:10pm Tue 1 Jul 08

As a smoker, I still prefer the pubs now that they are smoke free! I have no objection to going outside for a cigarette, and tbh find that the attitude of most of the people I encounter when doing that.

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Frontier(s), says...
12:12pm Tue 1 Jul 08

pay around £3 for one pint, it's becoming more expensive then petrol and that comes from the bottom of the sea!

This might be an ideal time for RFM to confirm to us how much of the £3 we now spend on the average pub pint of lager is purely taxation/duty.

I believe that the total duty and VAT on a £3 pint is something in the region of £1?

ie, the tax you hand over to Gordon Brown for a pub pint could buy you a can buy you one and a half cans of lager at a supermarket!

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Captain Sensible, Near Swindon says...
12:13pm Tue 1 Jul 08

Yes its obvious to all that once the smoking ban came in the expected legion of non smokers filling our pubs up to replace the smokers never happened. This coupled with the ever increasing cost of beer and cider (in comparison with the ever cheapening price of fizzy squash flavoured chemical filled alcopops in shops)and the greed of Pubco's is destroying our pub heritage. Alcohol is this stalinist governments next target, and they don't care if another aspect of our Bristish heritage goes to the wall. Pubs and brewerys are just following Post Offices, small high street shops and decent public services to the wall.This country has been ruined by 11 years of labour mismanagement, and the only thing to do now is leave and will the last white middle class non minority person please switch the lights off.

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Casual Observer, Swindon says...
12:15pm Tue 1 Jul 08

emmylou83 wrote:

Casual Observer wrote:

Russ The Manc wrote: Casual Observer do you keep a file of all Emz postings, its a bit worrying how quickly you found that. I am like most on here now enjoy smoke free bars/pubs RFM it does not matter wether new ventilation systems etc work or not.The Government are not going bto go backwards on this get used to it..
Lol - one word.. Google Nothing is forgotten on the internet
Oh dear I'm sure that can't be good, you googled me? you actually googled me?? hahaha oh how funny

not quite that funny...

I googled
emy* cig* idiot*

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Casual Observer, Swindon says...
12:19pm Tue 1 Jul 08

Captain Sensible wrote:
Yes its obvious to all that once the smoking ban came in the expected legion of non smokers filling our pubs up to replace the smokers never happened. This coupled with the ever increasing cost of beer and cider (in comparison with the ever cheapening price of fizzy squash flavoured chemical filled alcopops in shops)and the greed of Pubco's is destroying our pub heritage. Alcohol is this stalinist governments next target, and they don't care if another aspect of our Bristish heritage goes to the wall. Pubs and brewerys are just following Post Offices, small high street shops and decent public services to the wall.This country has been ruined by 11 years of labour mismanagement, and the only thing to do now is leave and will the last white middle class non minority person please switch the lights off.

Bye

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stfcrule, old town says...
12:38pm Tue 1 Jul 08

I would just like to say that, as a frequent visitor to both of the Old Town pubs that have now been closed, their closures were in no small part down to inept management and not just the smoking ban. I appreciate that this would have had a negative effect on both, but the truth is, that both of these premises would have closed whether there was a smoking ban or not !

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NIGE, PURTON says...
12:43pm Tue 1 Jul 08

Frontier(s) wrote:

pay around £3 for one pint, it's becoming more expensive then petrol and that comes from the bottom of the sea!
This might be an ideal time for RFM to confirm to us how much of the £3 we now spend on the average pub pint of lager is purely taxation/duty. I believe that the total duty and VAT on a £3 pint is something in the region of £1? ie, the tax you hand over to Gordon Brown for a pub pint could buy you a can buy you one and a half cans of lager at a supermarket!

ok so I'm not RFM, but there was an article in the grauniad back in November

Vat and duty THEN amounted to 28.5% of the cost, so about 86p on the £3 pint, so not far out from the £1, even more now since the last budget I'd guess

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doug@homefarm, SN1 says...
12:53pm Tue 1 Jul 08

And stfcrule don't forget that the Pipers has always been a dump, although not bad in the Hobgoblin days.

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Frontier(s), says...
1:05pm Tue 1 Jul 08

As with petrol, it's outright theft that VAT is added to fuel/alcohol duty.

Tax on tax from money you've already been taxed on.

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emmylou83, Stratton says...
1:10pm Tue 1 Jul 08

Casual Observer wrote:

emmylou83 wrote:
Casual Observer wrote:
Russ The Manc wrote: Casual Observer do you keep a file of all Emz postings, its a bit worrying how quickly you found that. I am like most on here now enjoy smoke free bars/pubs RFM it does not matter wether new ventilation systems etc work or not.The Government are not going bto go backwards on this get used to it..
Lol - one word.. Google Nothing is forgotten on the internet
Oh dear I'm sure that can't be good, you googled me? you actually googled me?? hahaha oh how funny
not quite that funny... I googled emy* cig* idiot*

still funny that you felt the need too hehehe

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oldcrone, swindon says...
1:23pm Tue 1 Jul 08

In all honesty i really dont think the smoking ban is affecting trade in the pubs (may be its a differt story in working mens clubs?). I like the clean air in the pubs, and I am a smoker and feel happy to go outside as do the majority of smokers.

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Casual Observer, Swindon says...
1:23pm Tue 1 Jul 08

indeed, hilarious

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oldcrone, swindon says...
1:25pm Tue 1 Jul 08

Casual Observer wrote:

emmylou83 wrote:
Casual Observer wrote:
emmylou83 wrote:
dc wrote: EL83 - so wearing jeans to the pub for an hour requires washing? i am clearly filthy.
dc - let the record show you said it not me :o) I'm just a clean freak obviously
a clean freak that smokes? Don't kid yourself
I don't smoke LOL at what point did I say I smoked??? Did I miss something???
Yes.. this Posted by: emmylou83, Stratton on 3:01pm Mon 7 Apr 08 i'll have a cig, just had a job interview from hell :o(

ooooh dear i dont know how old you are casual observer but that is alarmingly creepy!

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yeti, swindon says...
1:31pm Tue 1 Jul 08

i dont buy into the smoking ban having the efect on trade.
it is the cost that stops people going to pubs.the smokers still go to the pub. but of course like many non smokers are not going in the numbers they used to, due to the cost of a pint.

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Frontier(s), says...
1:55pm Tue 1 Jul 08

yeti - I disagree.

I've never smoked yet know a lot of people who do. All of them can afford to drink in pubs, they just get fed up with having to keep going outside to smoke and once people have had a few drinks someone (usually a smoker) suggests going to someone's house as they can then sit around chatting and smoking without disrupting the social group all the time.

Although, I must admit, when it comes to moving on from lager to wine we always tend to go back home because we can drink far better quality wine, that's actually properly chilled, for much less money.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
2:02pm Tue 1 Jul 08

All I can see to those who do not believe what is before their very eyes, ask a licensee. Do you honestly think that so many are going broke for the sheer hell of it when before the ban they were find. Let me ask those who run a business what effect would losing 25% of your turnover have?. As for the earlier comments about ventilation and enforcement. EHO's could have a £50 meter and check in the course of their normal inspections. Not expensive or time consuming.

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oldcrone, swindon says...
2:09pm Tue 1 Jul 08

Robert Feal-Martinez wrote:
All I can see to those who do not believe what is before their very eyes, ask a licensee. Do you honestly think that so many are going broke for the sheer hell of it when before the ban they were find. Let me ask those who run a business what effect would losing 25% of your turnover have?. As for the earlier comments about ventilation and enforcement. EHO's could have a £50 meter and check in the course of their normal inspections. Not expensive or time consuming.

i would say that a 25% loss of turnover is pretty much on the par of most businesses in the last year, and it has nothing to do with smoking!

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dolly daydream, says...
2:10pm Tue 1 Jul 08

The smoking ban has done nothing but cause problems for smokers and non smokers. I am a smoker so i know i'm gonna come in for some stick but here's my views!

If i go out with a friend who is a non smoker, she has to sit in a pub alone with one lot of drunks and i am outside on my own with another lot.

If i go out with another smoking friend, we have to lug our bags, coats and drinks outside so they don't get nicked, plus wherever we were sat will be taken when we get back. (not a major hassle i know)

Now the summer is here, supposedly, are we gonna have the non smokers now moaning that they can't sit outside because of the smokers???? (I have already heard someone in my local complaining about that!).

I knew they are not great concerns in the grand scheme of things but they annoy me the same as smoking annoys non smokers.

I'm sorry but I will not give up just because some crappy government are using this issue as a smoke screen to hide the real problems in this country.

Thank you, best i stop now lol :)

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yeti, swindon says...
2:13pm Tue 1 Jul 08

i reckon it is the same as small shops really.they are getting out priced by supermarkets and the same thing is happening to pubs.
a bottle of wine from a supermarket is the same as a glass in a pub.4 cans of beer the price of a pint.the pubs who keep their prices low are still doing fine.

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Russ The Manc, Swindon says...
2:29pm Tue 1 Jul 08

OOoooh seen as your all saying how the High the prices of alcohol are some bars are trying to compete.
Sir Daniel have a nice ice cold pint of Coors for £2.10 a pint and Yates are selling Foster for £1.80 a pint and Strongbow £1.90 a pint thats not to bad but Asda still do 18 cans for £10. Pubs will never be able to compete with the supermarkets I think this has more to do with the downturn in trade than the smoking ban. I am an ex smoker and I love going into bars now and that horrible stench has gone and I dont walk around at night worried some drunken fool is going to burn me or my clothes whilst dancing around in a pub with a lit ciggarette in their hands...

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beehive, swindon says...
2:35pm Tue 1 Jul 08

Casual Observer wrote:
Very well put RFM - as much as I dislike smoking and find pubs generally much more pleasant places now, I'm saddened to see two of my local pubs now boarded up.

Can't help thinking that the price of beer has something to do with it though. £3.20 for a pint of bitter in the Beehinve is just too much. It might be a 'cultural haven' but down the road it's £1.78 without the tired old blues band.

I'd go round the 'hive twice as often if Andy's price promise wasn't; "Find a more expensive pint within a ten mile radius and I'll match it"

That's taking the p!ss

I don't mind a bit of criticism, but please get your facts right. The price promise on the Beehive website is my sad attempt at humour. And it's 5 miles not 10. I agree that beer generally is too expensive, largely due to taxes and greedy brewers. While I wouldn't pretend to be the cheapest pub in town, there are many more expensive. The range of 5 bitters starts at £2.70. None of them are currently £3.20, although the strongest is £3.30. There are three sessions of live music this week. None of them are blues bands, although the Sunday band does play a couple of blues numbers. Bob Cheevers is old but not tired. Alfie Kingston is neither old or tired.

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emmylou83, Stratton says...
2:45pm Tue 1 Jul 08

drunken fool is going to burn me or my clothes whilst dancing around in a pub with a lit ciggarette in their hands...

I used to hate that too I actually got one of my mates clean on the top of the arm once as far as I know she still has the mark - we laugh about it now but only coz we were both stupidly drunk and it didn't hurt her till the next morning :o)

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Captain Sensible, Near Swindon says...
2:56pm Tue 1 Jul 08

To be fair to the Beehive, its always (since I first went in it in 1987) been an expensive pub to drink in. But its always full so the pricing can be justified, if you don't like the prices go elsewhere. It is, after all, other than the Gluepot the only pub in Swindon with any character. Long may it continue as it is. Shame it couldn't become a proper freehouse though, with an ever changing range of local breweries beer on tap. We all have our dreams......

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joe public, lincoln says...
3:37pm Tue 1 Jul 08

What's happened to your poll?

Can we at least see the results?

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joe public, lincoln says...
3:56pm Tue 1 Jul 08

thanks

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Casual Observer, Swindon says...
4:43pm Tue 1 Jul 08

beehive wrote:

Casual Observer wrote:
Very well put RFM - as much as I dislike smoking and find pubs generally much more pleasant places now, I'm saddened to see two of my local pubs now boarded up.

Can't help thinking that the price of beer has something to do with it though. £3.20 for a pint of bitter in the Beehinve is just too much. It might be a 'cultural haven' but down the road it's £1.78 without the tired old blues band.

I'd go round the 'hive twice as often if Andy's price promise wasn't; "Find a more expensive pint within a ten mile radius and I'll match it"

That's taking the p!ss
I don't mind a bit of criticism, but please get your facts right. The price promise on the Beehive website is my sad attempt at humour. And it's 5 miles not 10. I agree that beer generally is too expensive, largely due to taxes and greedy brewers. While I wouldn't pretend to be the cheapest pub in town, there are many more expensive. The range of 5 bitters starts at £2.70. None of them are currently £3.20, although the strongest is £3.30. There are three sessions of live music this week. None of them are blues bands, although the Sunday band does play a couple of blues numbers. Bob Cheevers is old but not tired. Alfie Kingston is neither old or tired.

I stand corrected Andy (could have sworn it was 10 miles). I guess my pint has gone up by two bob since I last had one in there.

On the plus side I've often sat in the Beehive and thought "I hope this place never changes" it's such a great little pub and I've been drinking on and off in there since Noel Riley's reign.

I've also seen some really great bands through the years and that's generally justified the costly beer for me. Don't know if I'm more conciencious at the moment, with the crunch and all, but for a proper skinfull I have to think about a cheaper establishment.

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yeti, swindon says...
4:45pm Tue 1 Jul 08

"the mill" are an ace band that play at the beehive.they rock!

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wendy, swindon says...
4:59pm Tue 1 Jul 08

I agree with RFM, the evidence is clear. I drink in a club, very cheap beer, it's not the cost killing the club, it's not having any facilities for the 85% of their customers who smoke! There is no back way, they can't put anything outside as it is on the street, not even a rain shield and they can't use the roof, due to residents, so as a direct result of the smoking ban, they are struggling to survive. Dolly day dream you are right, the non smokers are now moaning about having to share outside with smokers for the summer months! they want it all ways and I would also like to know where on earth all the non smokers are, now they have clean air to breath, the one's that were going to be using the pubs/clubs? sat at home drinking tea I presume, as they haven't taken over in supporting licenced establishments from the smokers. Why on earth they couldn't have smoking pubs and non smoking ones so there could still be choice and save closures & jobs, I just don't know!

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Keyboardcapers, Swindon says...
5:49pm Tue 1 Jul 08

I have a sign on my front door saying (Smokers only)

'dolly daydream' you are very welcome to join me with all my friends.

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CK, Swindon says...
5:58pm Tue 1 Jul 08

Can I ask the ANTI smokers writing on here a question ( this does not apply to tolerant non-smokers).

Have you, at any time in your life, ever been forced to enter an etablishment where smoking is allowed?

A straight yes or no will do here please.

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mandy vincent, not near Swindon says...
7:58pm Tue 1 Jul 08

Why didn't the smoke haters invest their own money for smoke-free venues, they were never banned from doing so.
Ventilation works for every other factory job.
I would not care if barcardi and coke was £1.00 it still would not get us (myself smoker,hubby never smoked) to the pub or club through the winter months. In fact after 25 years of being a club member we did not renew our membership when the ban came in. They did not even try to fight it, even though the government lied to them.
I am now waiting for my new ventilation unit to come, with money saved from trips to Spain for ciggies and not going out.
To the anti smoke - haters, do you douse yourselves in carcinogenic perfumes and aftershaves and force those with asthma to breathe them in?
http://www.ourlittle
place.com/chemicals.
html
3. BENZYL ACETATE (in: perfume, cologne, shampoo, fabric softener, stickup air freshener, dishwashing liquid and detergent, soap, hairspray, bleach, after shave, deodorants)
Carcinogenic (linked to pancreatic cancer); "From vapors: irritating to eyes and respiratory passages, exciting cough." "In mice: hyperanemia of the lungs." "Can be absorbed through the skin causing systemic effects." "Do not flush to sewer."
They COULD not cause cancer in the smoking dogs experiments, forcing smoke in them for 24/7 which no-human could tolerate, only because it would make you sick.

This smoking ban experiment was always about control - Since restrictions of smoking are one of the most effective -- and virtually the least expensive -- way to it is no surprise that there is growing support for smoking restrictions, even if no nonsmokers' health is being put at risk by the smoking, suggests Banzhaf.PROFESSOR JOHN F. BANZHAF

Sounds like another dictator, who oppressed minorities.
freedom2choose.info for tolerant non-smokers and smokers alike, please join us

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PeeGee, Swindon says...
11:44pm Tue 1 Jul 08

CK wrote:
Can I ask the ANTI smokers writing on here a question ( this does not apply to tolerant non-smokers). Have you, at any time in your life, ever been forced to enter an etablishment where smoking is allowed? A straight yes or no will do here please.

Yes. To work (or be sacked). And no, it was not a pub.

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mandy vincent, says...
11:53pm Tue 1 Jul 08

Do you meant like these people?
http://www.smokerscl
ubinc.com/Page/6100.
html
Weyco and Banzhaf

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mandy vincent, says...
1:30am Wed 2 Jul 08

oops it should read mean sorry

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mandy vincent, says...
1:30am Wed 2 Jul 08

oops it should read mean sorry

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CK, Swindon says...
2:25am Wed 2 Jul 08

PeeGee wrote:

CK wrote: Can I ask the ANTI smokers writing on here a question ( this does not apply to tolerant non-smokers). Have you, at any time in your life, ever been forced to enter an etablishment where smoking is allowed? A straight yes or no will do here please.
Yes. To work (or be sacked). And no, it was not a pub.

Since when has anyone been forced to work?

If people were forced to work no-one would be claiming unemployment benefit because there would be no need! Everyone would have a job!!!

I've been working for over 35 years and I know I've never been "forced" to work anywhere. I've worked in both smoking and non-smoking environments but it's been by choice, never force.

One firm I worked for introduced a smoking ban overnight. That was back in 1992. The only reason for the ban was the boss (an American) hated smoking.

I remained with that firm for many years. I could have left at any time but chose not to.

People choose to work in a particular place. They also choose to socialise in a particular place.

Anti-smokers have never been forced into a smoking establishment. They've gone of their own free will.

On the other hand, anti-smokers have taken away the choice, not just from smokers but from everyone on whether to patronise a smoking or non-smoking establishment.

There should have been smoking and non-smoking establishments in as near equal amounts as possible so that everyone had a choice.

That would never do though would it? The anti-smoking bigots have made damned sure of that.

Hope all you anti-smokers are happy with yourselves. Congratulations for forcing elderly and disabled people out in the freezing cold. In many cases, the very people who risked their lives to keep you and this god-forsaken country free. Congratulations for ensuring that many bingo halls and clubs have shut-down (the Mecca springs to mind) ensuring that many elderly people no longer have a social life. Congratulations on costing many people their jobs and livelihoods through your ill-informed bigotry.

Go on. Give yourselves a pat on the back for a job well done!

[quote][bold]PeeGee[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]CK[/bold] wrote: Can I ask the [bold]ANTI[/bold] smokers writing on here a question ( this does not apply to tolerant non-smokers). [bold]Have you, at any time in your life, ever been forced to enter an etablishment where smoking is allowed?[/bold] A straight [bold]yes[/bold] or [bold]no[/bold] will do here please.[/quote] Yes. To work (or be sacked). And no, it was not a pub.[/quote] Since when has anyone been [italic][bold]forced[/bold][/italic] to work? If people were [italic][bold]forced[/bold][/italic] to work no-one would be claiming unemployment benefit because there would be no need! Everyone would have a job!!! I've been working for over 35 years and I know I've never been "forced" to work anywhere. I've worked in both smoking and non-smoking environments but it's been by [italic][bold]choice[/bold][/italic], never force. One firm I worked for introduced a smoking ban overnight. That was back in 1992. The only reason for the ban was the boss (an American) hated smoking. I remained with that firm for many years. I could have left at any time but chose not to. People choose to work in a particular place. They also choose to socialise in a particular place. Anti-smokers have never been [italic][bold]forced[/bold][/italic] into a smoking establishment. They've gone of their own free will. On the other hand, anti-smokers have taken away the choice, not just from smokers but from [bold]everyone[/bold] on whether to patronise a smoking or non-smoking establishment. There should have been smoking and non-smoking establishments in as near equal amounts as possible so that everyone had a choice. That would never do though would it? The anti-smoking bigots have made damned sure of that. Hope all you anti-smokers are happy with yourselves. Congratulations for forcing elderly and disabled people out in the freezing cold. In many cases, the very people who risked their lives to keep you and this god-forsaken country free. Congratulations for ensuring that many bingo halls and clubs have shut-down (the Mecca springs to mind) ensuring that many elderly people no longer have a social life. Congratulations on costing many people their jobs and livelihoods through your ill-informed bigotry. Go on. Give yourselves a pat on the back for a job well done!

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amlorusso, Swindon says...
3:31am Wed 2 Jul 08

"ASH's crowning glory on their own admission ( Deborah Arnott Guardian interview) conned the Government into believing passive smoking was harmful, she used the words 'confidence trick'."

Is this the article you're refering to?

http://www.guardian.
co.uk/society/2006/j
ul/19/health.healtha
ndwellbeing

If so quote me the passage where she states she "conned the Government into believing passive smoking was harmful" and used the words "confidence trick" in any kind of connection with that. Second hand smoking is mentioned but not in the context stated and confidence trick is mentioned but not in the context stated.

The article said "We argued that secondhand smoke is a killer". The article did not say "conned the Government into believing passive smoking was harmful"

It does say much later in the article in no connection with the above "It is essential that campaigners create the impression of inevitable success. Campaigning of this kind is literally a confidence trick: the appearance of confidence both creates confidence and demoralises the opposition. The week before the free vote we made sure the government got the message that we "knew" we were going to win and it would be better for them to be on the winning side."

So unless ASH doesn't believe what it's saying they are no different from anyone else in this world, trying to influence policy to meet their beliefs. They wanted smoking banned in public places everywhere and they went out to get it and won. If you think their argument was wrong, or their methods were underhand, that's your opinion. If you say they deliberately lied, prove it, because that article doesn't even come close to supporting that claim.

I think that banning smoking in a non public workplaces and in government buildings is sensible. Banning smoking in pubs and clubs, private businesses open to the public, that should have been left to make their own policy or technological solutions, was dead wrong.

"Freedom to choose"

I also beleive that if pubs and clubs that have suffered because of the smoking ban, I'm not going to put my opinion on that because I simply have no personal knowledge on which to make one, they only have the smokers who are staying away to blame. They chose - they should not have had to, but they made a choice, they choose smoking. And what percentage of pubs and clubs in Swindon actually installed these air filtration systems? Freedom to choose indeed.

I'd like the freedom to drink beer or wine at a cinema, or even a drink or snack I brought with me. The cinema says I can't, maybe because they don't want people drinking alchohol or drinking something they didn't sell. There might even be a cinema that says I can, assuming alcholol is not banned by law from being sold at cinemas, but I've never come across one yet. But I still go and pay for the ticket and their snacks because I love movies on the big screen, and I can choose easily because I'm not an alchohol addict.

If there is a cultural aspect to traditional pubs, why is a smoking ban killing them in a matter of years and not generations or even decades? It has shocked my belief that there is something more to traditional pubs and pubcos than sellers of alchohol, nicotine and food that they can be hurt so easily and quickly by this.

By the way, who is Big D?

"ASH's crowning glory on their own admission ( Deborah Arnott Guardian interview) conned the Government into believing passive smoking was harmful, she used the words 'confidence trick'." Is this the article you're refering to? http://www.guardian. co.uk/society/2006/j ul/19/health.healtha ndwellbeing If so quote me the passage where she states she "conned the Government into believing passive smoking was harmful" and used the words "confidence trick" in any kind of connection with that. Second hand smoking is mentioned but not in the context stated and confidence trick is mentioned but not in the context stated. The article said "We argued that secondhand smoke is a killer". The article did not say "conned the Government into believing passive smoking was harmful" It does say much later in the article in no connection with the above "It is essential that campaigners create the impression of inevitable success. Campaigning of this kind is literally a confidence trick: the appearance of confidence both creates confidence and demoralises the opposition. The week before the free vote we made sure the government got the message that we "knew" we were going to win and it would be better for them to be on the winning side." So unless ASH doesn't believe what it's saying they are no different from anyone else in this world, trying to influence policy to meet their beliefs. They wanted smoking banned in public places everywhere and they went out to get it and won. If you think their argument was wrong, or their methods were underhand, that's your opinion. If you say they deliberately lied, prove it, because that article doesn't even come close to supporting that claim. I think that banning smoking in a non public workplaces and in government buildings is sensible. Banning smoking in pubs and clubs, private businesses open to the public, that should have been left to make their own policy or technological solutions, was dead wrong. "Freedom to choose" I also beleive that if pubs and clubs that have suffered because of the smoking ban, I'm not going to put my opinion on that because I simply have no personal knowledge on which to make one, they only have the smokers who are staying away to blame. They chose - they should not have had to, but they made a choice, they choose smoking. And what percentage of pubs and clubs in Swindon actually installed these air filtration systems? Freedom to choose indeed. I'd like the freedom to drink beer or wine at a cinema, or even a drink or snack I brought with me. The cinema says I can't, maybe because they don't want people drinking alchohol or drinking something they didn't sell. There might even be a cinema that says I can, assuming alcholol is not banned by law from being sold at cinemas, but I've never come across one yet. But I still go and pay for the ticket and their snacks because I love movies on the big screen, and I can choose easily because I'm not an alchohol addict. If there is a cultural aspect to traditional pubs, why is a smoking ban killing them in a matter of years and not generations or even decades? It has shocked my belief that there is something more to traditional pubs and pubcos than sellers of alchohol, nicotine and food that they can be hurt so easily and quickly by this. By the way, who is Big D?

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dc, swindon says...
9:44am Wed 2 Jul 08

CK "Hope all you anti-smokers are happy with yourselves."

Well i am now i've read your biased views. You talk about people not being forced to go places, well you arent forced to smoke now are you

"Congratulations for forcing elderly and disabled people out in the freezing cold"

not even sure where to begin on that one

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Web Team, Swindon says...
11:29am Wed 2 Jul 08

The poll has now closed.

See tomorrow's Adver for the results.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:54am Wed 2 Jul 08

amlorusso, please re-read what I wrote.
"ASH's crowning glory on their own admission ( Deborah Arnott Guardian interview) conned the Government into believing passive smoking was harmful, she used the words 'confidence trick'." The quotation marks are not mine.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
11:58am Wed 2 Jul 08

From the article:
It is essential that campaigners create the impression of inevitable success. Campaigning of this kind is literally a confidence trick:

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RTS, UK says...
12:27pm Wed 2 Jul 08

yeti wrote:
i dont buy into the smoking ban having the efect on trade.
it is the cost that stops people going to pubs.the smokers still go to the pub. but of course like many non smokers are not going in the numbers they used to, due to the cost of a pint.

A nice theory that doesn't hold water. In Wetherspoons a pint of Stella costs only £2.10. If your theory were true then people would be gravitating towards similar pubs and away from the more expensive establishments, yet Whetherspoons isn't doing so well either. Profits are down and their share price has dropped dramatically.
More evidence pointing to the smoking ban being a primary factor is a drop in trade is seen almost EVERYWHERE a smoking ban is enacted.
It happened in Ireland (long before the credit crunch) and in Scotland, which enacted its ban over 12 months ahead of England. Curiously, if we were to go with your theory, a sharp downturn in the pub trade was seen north of the border, but not in the south, where the smoking ban had not yet been enacted. The English downturn didn't happen until AFTER the ban.
Funny that.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
12:40pm Wed 2 Jul 08

RTS, this denialism is all too common amongst the anti smokers. They cannot bring themselves to admit, not onlt is the smoking ban destroying pubs and clubs but it has resulted in an increase of 8% in smoking in Ireland, a 3% increase in Scotland and currently 1% increase in England and Wales.

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Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
12:52pm Wed 2 Jul 08

Another interesting piece of research that clearly indicates smokers susceptibility to COPD is genetic.
Scientists in the USA believe they have identified the genes that make smokers susceptible to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD). Ronald Crystal (Cornell University, New York) and co-workers comment: "Despite the overwhelming evidence of cigarette smoking as the major risk factor for the development of COPD, the majority of long-term smokers remain healthy, strongly suggesting that genetic factors modify disease susceptibility to this environmental stress."

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merv, swindon says...
1:08pm Wed 2 Jul 08

it is not only the smokin ban Just take a LOOK at the bottom of town ful of kids police officers who only concern is to stand around chatting to door staff example couple of weeks ago I was at the bottom of town where I went passed lava lounge to overhere a female officer flirting with member of door staff directly behind them a man on the floor in a coma state now me I would be bent down trying to revieve the man not have my back turned on him I`m sure the cctv would make good viewing on protecting public. so it is the town itself policys and procedures killing the industry

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dolly daydream, says...
1:41pm Wed 2 Jul 08

Why thank you keyboard capers :)

CK, i agree with most of your rant, believe me i could have carried on for ages. Another thing that's upsets me is people that pay for the hire of function rooms. My sister recently got married and it was quite sad to see the room half empty all the time. Same with a birthday do i went to recently. :(

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CK, Swindon says...
6:44pm Wed 2 Jul 08

dc wrote:
CK "Hope all you anti-smokers are happy with yourselves."

Well i am now i've read your biased views. You talk about people not being forced to go places, well you arent forced to smoke now are you

"Congratulations for forcing elderly and disabled people out in the freezing cold"

not even sure where to begin on that one

Take off your blinkers DC. Have a look (for example) at the Gala bingo and you'll see elderly people, people in wheelchairs sitting outside at half-time braving the cold and wet. Same goes for pubs and clubs.

In WWII, the majority of people were smokers. These are the people who risked their lives to keep the likes of you free. The chances are, without them, neither you nor I would be here.

You and your ilk owe them a debt of gratitude, not throwing out in the freezing cold because they dare to be smokers.

You and your kind are an afront to the freedoms that these people risked their lives and in many cases died for.

My own father and grandfather must be turning in their graves at the sheer bigotry that's going on in this country at the moment.

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amlorusso, Swindon says...
1:53am Thu 3 Jul 08

Robert. So you are claiming what now? That you didn't say that she said she "conned the Government into believing passive smoking was harmful" or that you didn't take her usage of the word confidence trick out of context and linked to this 'conning' of the government?

I never said she did not use the word confidence trick. If you'd read my post it clearly quotes her using the words confidence trick. You took the phrase confidence trick (which she did say) out of context and applied it to something she didn't say "conned the Government into believing passive smoking was harmful"

What has my quotation marks or your quotation marks got to do with that? Were you quoting someone else who said that? If I've misunderstood explain to me what you meant by that? Telling me to re-read it isn't going to help if you don't explain what I've misunderstood.

By the way, when you argued against prostitution and challenged the 'perverts' in favour of prostitution to reveal themselves on this site, was that your idea of Freedom to Choose?

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dc, swindon says...
9:14am Thu 3 Jul 08

CK

"In WWII, the majority of people were smokers. These are the people who risked their lives to keep the likes of you free. The chances are, without them, neither you nor I would be here."

Your points are not linked. People in WWII smoked, yes. Gave their lives for OUR freedom, yes. They did not give there lives because they smoked, and i cant believe you would dare jump on their achievements as a pro-smoking argument. You disgust me.

"You and your ilk owe them a debt of gratitude" Of course we all do, not just my "ilk" whatever that may be.

"You and your kind are an afront to the freedoms that these people risked their lives and in many cases died for." Freedom from facism and tyrany yes, freedom to smoke? Don't cheapen their achievements.

My Grandfather died in WWII fighting for freedom from Nazi invasion and rule, not for the likes of you to claim smoking is why they were there. I would like an apology but doubt you are capable.

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dolly daydream, says...
11:18am Thu 3 Jul 08

DC, I may be wrong but i think you are missing cks' point. It's about the freedom of choice in general, not just the choice to smoke.

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dc, swindon says...
11:23am Thu 3 Jul 08

hi dolly, ok that may be the case but the freedom argument works both ways doesnt it? Freedom to smoke/freedom to be free of smoke? I think thats where RFM's arguments about air-con come into play which is interesting.

But i maintain drawing WWII fight for freedom arguments into a smoking debate is in bad taste.

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