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Troubled pub may have to close


MASS brawls and late night loud music could spell last orders for a Swindon pub.

In the past few months The Sandgate on Oxford Road has come under the watchful eye of the police and Swindon Council.

Complaints about noise provoked action from council noise monitors and scuffles, one involving 50 people and which saw a police officer hospitalised, have prompted a review of the venue’s licence.

On Thursday a panel of councillors will decide the pub’s fate.

Licence holder Tracy Rumble says improvements have already been made.

She said music stops earlier than it should, windows and doors are closed and curtains, which help contain sound, have gone up – and she said she has also bought a sound monitor.

“I took over the running of this place in January and a lot of the trouble was before that,” she said.

“And I have spoken to the council’s licensing people since then and sorted out the problems with the noise.

“I feel I have a strong case.”

Action against the venue started late last year when the council’s environmental improvement team received complaints about the volume of music at the venue – which is supposed to finish at 11pm.

Police have also supported the review of the licence – and said they had been planning to complain anyway.

Officers sent the council papers which show that last November officers were called to the pub to deal with a 20 person fight and a 50 person fight in December.

Police also attended a 20 person fight on July 30 this year, which saw one officer hospitalised after being kicked in the arm and the ribs. In her statement the injured officer wrote: “The incident has left me very shaken up and I have never been so frightened in my police career.” Ms Rumble told the Adver: “The evening was perfect. Everyone was fine it was a good evening. So I’m really not sure what happened.”

Paperwork sent to the council by police about the venue concluded: “Significant disorder happens after midnight and the disorders are impacting on the quality of life of local residents and are also very resource intensive for the police to resolve – impacting on policing in the wider community.”

The police suggested cutting back hours booze can be sold, careful monitoring of how people leave the venue and staff training on how to refuse selling already drunk people more alcohol.

Council officers got involved after receiving complaints about the volume of music at The Sandgate and visited the area three times to hear for themselves.

After the third visit, on July 20 this year, the officer called the venue in the early hours to raise complaints but, said the council report, the landlord argued, refused to apologise or co-operate.

Papers that were sent to the licensing officers senior environmental health officer Rowan Castle said, because of the pub’s location and ‘the repeated failure of the management to adhere to the time limits of the licence or to control music noise’, the venue’s licence should be withdrawn.

Councillors will meet to rule on the future of the venue on Thursday.


Your Say YourSwindon

cfa, newcastle says...
9:58am Mon 15 Sep 08

Don't know what all the fuss is about this would be a normal pub up here in Newcastle!

Bobfm, South Marston says...
10:05am Mon 15 Sep 08

Let me say at the outset, I have never been in this pub. I also do not wish to comment on the allegations, as I have no way of knowing if they are true.

What I do wish to comment on, and express my absolute disgust at is the detail of the case being exposed in the media prior to any hearing. I do not blame the Adver for this, I blame the police and the LA for providing details which should not be in the public domain prior to the Licensing Review.

This in my view is an appalling breach of the procedures under the Licensing Act where reviews of a License should be conducted essentially under the rules of evidence as would be the case in a court of law.

To place this information in the public domain will prevent a fair hearing for the Licensee. I have always had a great deal of respect for Lionel Starling and his licensing team, I do sincerely hope his team has not been party to this gross abuse of the Review Procedure.

I would add one final point, I have never ever read any article in this paper about licensing disorder at this pub in recent years, has anyone else.

Let me say in conclusion I do not support licensees who allow disorder, or attempt to shirk their responsibilities and they should be appropriately dealt with, but Justice by Media is totally wrong and I would hope the various agencies involved would review their procedures so as not allow this to happen again.

lonnie sammie, swindon says...
10:08am Mon 15 Sep 08

CFA . is that you uncle c?

lonnie sammie, swindon says...
10:08am Mon 15 Sep 08

CFA . is that you uncle c?

cfa, newcastle says...
10:11am Mon 15 Sep 08

lonnie sammie,

If your mums name begins with K then yes i'm your uncle C!

lonnie sammie, swindon says...
10:14am Mon 15 Sep 08

ha ha, yeah it does lol
i have thought it was you before
xxx

Angry Bloke ( again ), Swindon says...
10:25am Mon 15 Sep 08

Family reunion ? Brilliant

Big Mac, Old Town says...
10:26am Mon 15 Sep 08

If they can't even close Angelos for good then I really don't think the landlords of The Sandgate have anything to worry about.

lonnie sammie, swindon says...
10:27am Mon 15 Sep 08

ha ha ha,
yeah but he wont realise it you
my other half
xx

Oxford, Toothill says...
11:10am Mon 15 Sep 08

These pubs are a bit like Windscale. Change the nameto protect the guilty and re-open them at the risk of everyone, although when I used to go to that pub some years ago, it was called The Lady Margaret. Looks like I'll go back to The Duke!

swindonfc08, says...
11:10am Mon 15 Sep 08

I think it's a shocking disgrace that the adver has printed this story. Ive been in the sandgate many times before for functions and i've never enjoyed a better time on a night out. atmosphere good, beer good, staff great and never any trouble. Shame on you Swindon Advertiser you've let us all down on this one my not printing an accurate and truthful story.

Bobfm, South Marston says...
11:26am Mon 15 Sep 08

swindonfc08, in fairness to the Adver, one assumes that this story has been 'fed to them' by 'official sources'. As my original posts makes clear I am appalled by this for reasons of natural justice, which is why I have emailed Lionel Starling asking if his group were party to this story.

As yet I have not received a reply.

kc1974, swindon says...
11:55am Mon 15 Sep 08

in these troubled times for the pub trade, i feel disgusted in the way the sandgate pub has been treated in repect of all the alledged trouble that has occured. As a sometimes occassional visitor to the pub I have witnessed first hand what this pub means to the community.
The pub has raised thousands of pounds in the last couple of years for local charities and they also sponsor numerous sports teams, a fact that that the advertiser choose to ignore.
The pub itself has a diverse cliental welcoming many people of various nations promoting harmony and intergration not the violence which the pub has been accused of attracting.
If I was the management of the sandgate I would insist on an retraction of a very one sided article. I hope that this will be the case.

PeeveD, Swindon says...
12:02pm Mon 15 Sep 08

Great! Lets close down this community pub for having THREE violent incidents in TEN months but allow the "filth" pubs in the Fleet Street/Bridge Street/John Street areas to flourish!
Shut the Sandgate but allow Casbah to continue operating?
Ridiculous!

Bobfm, South Marston says...
12:09pm Mon 15 Sep 08

It does seem rather strange that a search of the adver site doesn't reveal other articles about this pub and yet we are constantly reading about the town centre.

At the risk of causing controversy (would I), do any council officials, councillors or others with 'power' live nearby. That always seems to 'work'. I always remember many years ago in Chatham how this one tiny little estate which was on a hill always got gritted first in winter, nothing of course to do with th Councillor responsible for roads living there of course.

Captain Sensible, Near Swindon says...
12:16pm Mon 15 Sep 08

I regularly drive past this pub and in the last few years its had 2 or 3 makeovers which would indicate that all is not well. But I'm sure it provides a service for those that use it and I can't help thinking that the Adver has exaggerated the trouble for its own purposes.I cant beleive that there would be enough room in it for 50 people to fight.Appropriate name for the landlady though, Mrs Rumble....

Bobfm, South Marston says...
12:21pm Mon 15 Sep 08

CS, like many 'community pubs' this one has changed hands because of the greed on the Landlords, not necessarily because of other issue's.

I'm not quite sure as to who owns it now as these types of pubs are sold left right and centre. I still say the Adver is probably reporting what it has been told by officialdom. I still await a response from the Licensing department.

Casual Observer, Swindon says...
12:30pm Mon 15 Sep 08

I had occasion to visit this pub earlier this year and I can honestly say it was like a scene from 'Shameless' - fighting, arguing, singing, dancing and very heavy drinking. Best night I've had in ages.

kc1974, swindon says...
12:35pm Mon 15 Sep 08

It would make interesting reading if the council or police could publish a "league table" of troublesome pubs. I imagine the sandgate would not even come near in incidences recorded as other establishments in the town!

Manjitt, Swindon says...
12:37pm Mon 15 Sep 08

I find this article in the Swindon Advertiser has grossly exagerated the situation. What gives them the right to print that the pub will shut down? It is disgraceful. The Sandgate is a well run family, community orientated pub. I have always found the Sandgate to be extremely friendly and well run. You can see that a lot of money has been spent on refurbishment and it is always very clean and tidy. I enjoy socialising in the Sandgate and find Mrs Rumble and her staff to be extremely helpful and friendly.

Bobfm, South Marston says...
1:07pm Mon 15 Sep 08

Interestingly the Council claim most of the information contained in the report appears to have come from official police documents, which I am told are attached to the report which is in the public domain apparently. Strangely however I have searched SBC's website, press releases and also googled but can not find a thing.

Now I am not saying it's not in the public domain, just that it seems not to be visible using the obvious search criteria like Swindon Borough Council Licensing Review, Sandgate public house.

debs40, swindon says...
1:09pm Mon 15 Sep 08

Since the new landlady has taken over this pub, it has been vastly improved giving back a friendly pub to the local community. We can only do our best to manage a situation, with idiots around who think that fighting is the answer, no amount of good management will suffice, but at least she is taking positive steps to work with the police and the licensing authority to make sure they do all they can to prevent this from happening again. Lets not stop our local pubs from operating when there are bigger fish to fry in the centre of the town.

hmmmm, Stratton says...
1:11pm Mon 15 Sep 08

If it does shut, I'm sure they will soon stick up some nice flats there lol

kc1974, swindon says...
1:36pm Mon 15 Sep 08

considering the sandgate is situated on a rather large piece of land, it can make you think that there is a hidden agenda to all these accusations against the pub.

Parks and Proud, Swindon says...
1:45pm Mon 15 Sep 08

If I read it correctly the present landlady is now going to be punished for the previous landlord...
Thats what I like to see - Great British Justice!

Manjitt, Swindon says...
1:50pm Mon 15 Sep 08

I agree with Debs40 - the one occaision there was a 'fight' was outside the pub - not inside, so out of the landlady's control. I feel very strongly that the Advertiser has called this a 'MASS BRAWL', it is a large exageration and sensationlising the sitiuation. Good on the landlady for taking positive steps - pity the local newspaper doesn't help either..

Bobfm, South Marston says...
1:52pm Mon 15 Sep 08

I would have previously said she will get a fair hearing, however I have never seen so much detail laid out prior to a hearing. I have searched Licensed reviews extensively and cannot find one that has been detailed until after the event, anywhere within the country.

Lets hope I'm wrong and the Council does not impose impossible conditions for her to continue, the last thing we did is more boarded up community pubs.

With them dying at the rate of 5 a day, how long do you think it will be before all we have left is vertical drinking establishments. Not a pleasant thought for those of my generation.

Big Mac, Old Town says...
2:06pm Mon 15 Sep 08

kc1974 wrote:
considering the sandgate is situated on a rather large piece of land, it can make you think that there is a hidden agenda to all these accusations against the pub.
I'd say you're onto something there kc1974. It's also slap bang in a residential area.

yiddo, swindon says...
2:28pm Mon 15 Sep 08

Tut Tut same old Stratton!!!

Malkym, Highworth on the hill says...
2:48pm Mon 15 Sep 08

lonnie sammie wrote:
ha ha, yeah it does loli have thought it was you beforexxx
lonnie Sammie - surely "bob's your uncle"?

localgirl80, Swindon says...
2:59pm Mon 15 Sep 08

Shut it?? - im sure they will all find another pub to victimise.

Manjitt, Swindon says...
3:08pm Mon 15 Sep 08

I agree localgirl80 - these troublemakers will only go to another pub and cause trouble - it's not the pubs fault. It is the most friendliest pub I've ever been in.

yeti, swindon says...
3:25pm Mon 15 Sep 08

i went in the pub in question a few months ago.the locals were friendly and welcoming to me and the bloke i had a drink with.i chatted to a few of them and there was no bad atmosphere at all.
any pub can have someone who cannot handle their drink or goes mental after a few.

Strattonresident, Stratton, Swindon says...
3:30pm Mon 15 Sep 08

Surely the local police should be liaising with the Landlady to support her with these thugs who cause trouble. The pub is a friendly local pub, spoilt by a couple of idiots from other areas in Swindon. The Advertiser is being very irresponsible printing this sensationlising headline. KEEP THE SANDGATE OPEN!

millabhoy, swindon says...
6:25pm Mon 15 Sep 08

As a local who lives less than 35 meters from the Sandgate pub I find the adver's article extremely irresponsible in today's envinoment as regards the pub trade.
I have been a regular in the Sandgate and previously when it was the Lady Margaret for the past 12+ years and seen very little in the way of trouble in that time. The noise level is no more now than it was in the past with people leaving the pub seeming to be quieter than late night revellers being dropped off on Oxford road to gain access to Sandgate via the road in front of my house.
I would much rather have the pub in it's present guise than in previous years when it was struggling for trade and had no atmosphere. I think this article is typical of the type of paper the adver is. I have trouble reading it at the best of times!!!
As a pub that does so much charity work for good causes it makes you think as kc1974 said that there could be other motivation for the leaking of this story particularly with such detail.

lonnie sammie, swindon says...
7:03pm Mon 15 Sep 08

and fannys your aunt...... lol

I Too, Swindon says...
7:12pm Mon 15 Sep 08

I lived nearby to The Sandgate, when it used to be called The Lady Margaret. It was often a bit too quiet, but never a rowdy place.
My parents still live nearby and have never complained.
The same could hardly be said of the establishments at the bottom end of the town centre.
There does seem to be a recent trend to build more houses and flats in nooks and crannies in this area.
The whole story seems very exagerrated and inappropriate. Shame on The Swindon Advertiser.
Deal with the town centre hot spots.
Keep The Sandgate open

Mum's The Word, Walcot, Swindon says...
9:26pm Mon 15 Sep 08

Oh look on the bright side! (said especially for Big Mac!) This article has made me want to find out for myself! I suspect a few others will want to do so as well, after reading, thus improving this local pub's trade! Soooo...In actual fact the Adver could of done this pub a favour! Now who fancies a pint or a nice glass of wine? I think I'm going to pop in when I have a mo :)

gf83, Swindon says...
10:55pm Mon 15 Sep 08

As the girlfriend of a regular of this pub, I personally think that it will be a shame if it is closed down. The pub is not just an establishment that sells alcohol but it is a community in its own right. The pub regulary holds charity events and has donated money to local charities such as the Prospect Hospice.

Surely the police should concentrate on controlling areas such as the town centre were more instances occur on a regular basis.

It's not right!!! Keep it open!!!


Zoe-anne, Aldershot says...
10:56pm Mon 15 Sep 08

I do not live in Swindon, but have had several opportunities to visit the Sandgate over the last 18 months and would like to say the improvements made by the new management have been overwelming in an attempt to create a friendly family & communtiy atmosphere. This has been absolutely succesful and I applaud them for their hard work.

However, I am appalled to see reports of this nature undoing the hardwork. Let's face it most pubs have weekly incidents (I live in Aldershot - anyone whose been there will understand I know what I'm talking about) not 3 in 10 months and every social/alcohol evvironment will have a minority of heavy drinkers - this cannot be avoided.

This is a concern for residents, but surely the consequences of buying/renting a house next to pub should have been considered before relocating?

Bobfm, South Marston says...
8:54am Tue 16 Sep 08

I think the majority of these posts seem to sum up that the Sandgate does not deserve the action being taken. I know the Council Officers read the adver so lets hope they take the comments into account.

Better still may I suggest those who know this pub personally send an email to SBC Licensing expressing their dismay at this review. The email address is:

Licensing@swindon.go
v.uk

It may also be an idea for the Adver to comment as to the source of this information, despite being told this info is in the public domain, I cannot find it even on the councils own site.

I hope all goes well for the Sandgate at the Review. Times are hard enough for us Publicans without what does appear to be a malicious review.

EemBee, Swindon says...
1:00pm Tue 16 Sep 08

My understanding of the situation was that the Sandgate is to have its licence to play music reviewed, not its drinks licence so perhaps the Adverts headline was a little premature.

Having witnessed the excessive late night noise action needed to be taken. The suggestion that it ended at 11pm is nonsense, it has frequently been much later than this.

As for matters improving since last christmas, it is not true, noise and bad behaviour on a friday and saturday night have become worse. It has only abated since the Sandgate were told of the licence review.

Having witnessed the problems first hand, it is clear that this is anything but a pub suitable for families with young children because of the behaviour of the customers.

kc1974, swindon says...
1:43pm Tue 16 Sep 08

can Eembee tell me any public house which is suitable for families with young children on a friday and saturday night considering it is the weekend and would be the most likely time for unruly events to occur?
Granted that sometimes the customers are loud and merry due to alcohol, but is this not the same as any public house?

millabhoy, swindon says...
2:55pm Tue 16 Sep 08

In reply to eembee. As a local resident who basically has the pub at the end of his drive I can assure you that the level of noise created by the pub is in no way any worse than that created by some other residents on occasion when simply having a good time and relaxing, only more frequent as you would expect from a successful pub. The level of bad behavior is also blown way out of proportion and is generally caused by 1 or 2 idiots who visit the pub for functions or on the odd occation. As a witness to the so called mass brawls which consisted of said 1 or 2 idiots and many impassive observers I can assure you that the reports are grossly exagerated. SHOULD US LOCALS BE PUNISHED FOR THE ACTIONS OF A MINORITY???

EemBee, Swindon says...
4:38pm Tue 16 Sep 08

In reply to kc1974; there are several pubs in stratton suitable for families any night of the week.

The point here is whatever night of the week it is, there is no excuse for behaviour that attracts the attention of the licensing authorities and the police.

In reply to millabhoy; I believe it is the loud music that is basic cause of the problem and the reason for the licence review rather than the behavior of some customers. This perhaps should be dealt with seperately, but perhaps one problem has led to the other?


Bobfm, South Marston says...
5:19pm Tue 16 Sep 08

EemBee, the original complaint was indeed about noise and was generated by the Councils own officers, then as is the practice other agencies were notified including the police, who then piggy backed onto the Councils complaint. The police's complaint is under the Law and Disorder Objective, so they are being dealt with as one. Having now read the polices submission, there does appear to have been a number of incidents since from September to July 2007/8, several of which appear to have involved the 'landlord' according to the police submission.

millabhoy, swindon says...
6:38pm Tue 16 Sep 08

In reply to eembee loud music does not an idiot produce. The sandgate has this year started to become very successful and is now being persicuted for said success. There are far more incidents in the bottom of town on 1 night than in the last 12 months at the sandgate which was not all during the tenure of the landlady at this time. Surly these isolated and in frequent incidents do not require a front page headline which is an outrageous over reaction. To me it stinks of lazy, petty and poorly investigated journalism typical of the swindon advertiser.

millabhoy, swindon says...
6:50pm Tue 16 Sep 08

Just another point about this rag did it not recently print a story aboyt a Stratton man being charged with murder or manslaghter before all the facts were analized??? With said gentleman later being released without further action? Did they print an apology? if so on what page???

j - nythe, swindon says...
9:26pm Tue 16 Sep 08

I think it's disgusting how the Advertiser has run this article making it sound as if there is always trouble there, when there clearly isn't. I vist the Sandgate and feel very relaxed and welcomed. Troubled venue? surely they must be on about The Bulldog or The Worthington? If you buy a house near a pub you should expect noise, I live near the Messenger and regularly hear people who are a 'little worse for wear' leaving, but I can't complain because I knew the pub was there when I bought my house, If you don't want to hear people leaving a pub don't move near one! I do hope the Advertiser visits The Sandgate and gives them a fair hearing and prints about all the money they have raised for charities. Good luck Tracey for Thursday You've done a great Job since taking over and make everyone feel welcome.

Bobfm, South Marston says...
8:26am Wed 17 Sep 08

There clearly appears to be a hidden agenda here, but it is unfair to blame the Adver, they like all newspapers write stories on the information they have been given. In this case had I been the journalists having now seen what they presumably did, then the story is perhaps not so ill conceived, that is not to say that the information itself is true.

EemBee, Swindon says...
4:35pm Wed 17 Sep 08

Thanks to Bobfm for clarifying the exact nature of the problems. I think it suffice to say, with regard to the noise, it needs to be dealt with as it is excessive.

The previous long time landlord, a Mr Rogers, ran the pub for many years happily coexisting with his neighbours, this has all changed, why?

As for the police involvement, any incident involving the police being called is serious, it needs dealing with decisively and effectively to ensure there is no further repetion of the problem, sorting out t trouble of this nature is an appalling waste of police resources so they have every justification to be involved in this matter.



millabhoy, swindon says...
10:31pm Wed 17 Sep 08

In reply to eembee sure dave ran the pub with no trouble at all??? As a person who WAS involved in a 14 man brawl (not a couple with 18 bystanders) out side the pub in the car park while dave was the landlord I believe your judgement seems to be iether ill informed or purely biased. Of course the noise level now compared to when dave was in charge has increased as the pub is or was before this TRASH was put into print becoming very succesful. Before you ask I was not the instigator of the incident I referd to I was purely trying to aid a friend at the time. Afterwards that night I was permited to stay in the Maggie as Dave knew I was trying to stop someone getting badly injured. As someone has said previously people should not move close to a pub without expecting some degree of disruption no matter how quiet the pub is at the time buisness can always pick up.

scottyincs, says...
8:37am Thu 18 Sep 08

I see this thread was the one featured in the paper version of the adver last night.

Funnily enough, none of the posts questioning the adver's role in this were printed AGAIN!

Strange, that!! Stalin is alive and well and living in Old Town

scottyincs, says...
8:38am Thu 18 Sep 08

I see this thread was the one featured in the paper version of the adver last night.

Funnily enough, none of the posts questioning the adver's role in this were printed AGAIN!

Strange, that!! Stalin is alive and well and living in Old Town

scottyincs, says...
8:38am Thu 18 Sep 08

I see this thread was the one featured in the paper version of the adver last night.

Funnily enough, none of the posts questioning the adver's role in this were printed AGAIN!

Strange, that!! Stalin is alive and well and living in Old Town

petet, Swindon says...
11:32am Fri 19 Sep 08

I note that the meeting for this issue was 10.00 yesterday (Thursday 18th ) and it was first on the agenda HOw come I can't find any news of the outcome? could it be that it was in favour of the pub? I wonder! (actually I don't need to wonderbecause I spoke to the Licensing Officer at SBC and it was found in the pubs favour for now)

Your sayYour Swindon

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