God vs Science - which is right? (From Swindon Advertiser)
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God vs Science - which is right?
2:30pm Saturday 4th September 2010 in
CHURCH ministers in the town have spoken out about Stephen Hawking’s claims that God did not create the universe.
In his new book, The Grand Design, Professor Hawking says the laws of physics alone are responsible for creation and denies the existence of any higher being.
The book, co-written by American physicist Leonard Mlodinow, sets out to contest Sir Isaac Newton's belief that the universe must have been designed by God as it could not have been created out of chaos.
In an extract from the book, Professor Hawking states: “Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.
“Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.
“It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.”
But clergy in the town have defended their faith and the existence of God.
Rev Roger Powell, the rector of the Ridgeway benefice, which covers Chiseldon and the Ogbournes, said: “Christians believe in a God that created the world and there has to have been something at some time for the world to have been created.
“Going with science, you can have any number of scientific laws but such is nature that they can be broken at any time. People think that something has been proved and then because of nature something has been disproved.
“Belief is about faith. Christians believe that God created the world.
“They cannot prove it in science but you cannot disprove it in science.”
However, he said he thought it was important for everyone to be able to express their views and to think and reflect.
Rev Laurence Moss, deacon of St Joseph’s Church, in Wroughton, said: “As far as creation is concerned, science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God.
“Science can only deal with physical materials that can be measured and quantified.
“To think that it happened by accident is far more a tremendous leap of faith which I cannot take in. When you think about the wonders of the universe, I think you have got to be very naïve or something to think that this happened by accident.”
He added: “I believe that everything exists because God willed it to exist, that matter cannot just evolve itself out of nothing.
“Science will tell us there was a big bang and tell us that the universe is expanding but it cannot tell us the why or the how of when it went from nothing to something.”
Speaking to The Daily Express, The Rt Rev Lee Rayfield, the bishop of Swindon, said: “Professor Hawking is not saying that it is impossible to believe in God because of what he now understands about the physics of the Big Bang.
“His conclusion does not change the remarkable coherence between the nature of our universe and the understanding Christians have about the nature and character of God.”
Comments(46)
Wise man
says...
3:16pm Sat 4 Sep 10
Hmmmf
says...
3:45pm Sat 4 Sep 10
Gooey
says...
6:05pm Sat 4 Sep 10
itsamess
says...
6:39pm Sat 4 Sep 10
shannon_satines
says...
6:45pm Sat 4 Sep 10
Gooey wrote:It was science, it was always science and always will be, I do believe! Religions! and God developed after evolution and man progressed from the neanderthal to the sophisticated 'human'. In order to create a religion or God then you need to beable to converse and understand philosophies. Science all the way!
Science deals with facts.faith deals with fairytales from the dark ages.I know what I think is nearer the truth
PaulD
says...
7:17pm Sat 4 Sep 10
shannon_satines
says...
7:41pm Sat 4 Sep 10
PaulD
says...
8:35pm Sat 4 Sep 10
.
Trust a theist not see the sarcasm in my post.
May I recommend http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Letter_to_a
_christian_nation
Science has never pretended to know the answers to everything unlike the arrogant theists who have an answer for everything based on nothing more than fairy tales and superstition
Phantom Poster
says...
8:48pm Sat 4 Sep 10
So if "nothing can evolve itself out of nothing" how did god come to exist? Does he ponder 'why am I here?', 'what is MY reason for existing?'. It does seem a bit sad that it seems that 'his' only purpose in existing is to tend to us on mind-boggingly insignificant speck in the cosmos.
I'm guessing that the rev's experience in quantum mechanics is a bit limited, so why is he telling us what what matter can and cannot do?
Robh
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10:17pm Sat 4 Sep 10
How Soon Is Now
says...
10:57pm Sat 4 Sep 10
Phantom Poster
says...
11:28pm Sat 4 Sep 10
How Soon Is Now wrote:Tell that to people in Stalinist Russia and China!
How much nicer a place the earth would be if nobody believed in a god and we just got on with our lives.
I don't mind people believing in religion if they want to, but they've had hundreds of years of state sponsored support and use of the media as mouthpieces. Only now are we getting some mainstream publicity for the scientific "viewpoint" and questioning of the illogical dross they have been previously propogating without challenge.
shannon_satines
says...
12:12am Sun 5 Sep 10
PaulD wrote:As I have been pre-occupied earlier, I have not been able to get round to looking at this Wiki link you have posted to take a look at! I have infact been getting on with far more pressing issues than religion! And with sharing the consenous of H.S.I.N then the earth is a better place to be and getting on with your life is far more important!
'thin air' oh it's much much less than that. . Trust a theist not see the sarcasm in my post. May I recommend http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Letter_to_a _christian_nation Science has never pretended to know the answers to everything unlike the arrogant theists who have an answer for everything based on nothing more than fairy tales and superstition
Phantom Poster
says...
12:46am Sun 5 Sep 10
shannon_satines wrote:So god created every single particle in the entire cosmos - but accepts no responsibility for how badly it turned out! Bit of a dodgy tradesman, if you ask me!
God is not responsible for the all evil in the world as you put it! Your violent 'act' toward him is a complete waste of time and cowardly! God is a religion and belief, people who believe in, turn to God and the bible for faith and understanding in times of trouble and good times! The only way 'evil' occours is down to the behaviour choices of humans! And off course natural disasters!They can be deemed as 'evil' due to the cost of human suffering! Your violent threat towards God really doesn't make much sense! Apart from you punching thin air!
I certainly won't be asking him to build me a house extension!
Robfm
says...
8:58am Sun 5 Sep 10
Synergie
says...
10:39am Sun 5 Sep 10
It has long been accepted the Universe has always existed, albeit in a parallel dimension. Several millenia ago, there was nothing. Some guy 'spake' and the Universe burst through a tear in the space/time continuem. And Gynt said: "Bl00dy hell!, where did this lot come from?"
All this was sorted out years ago by messrs Kirk, Spock and Scotty. please try to keep up.
hughes1508
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11:45am Sun 5 Sep 10
Mr Blackwell
says...
12:10pm Sun 5 Sep 10
.
For some people, being prepared to simply trust in something because you feel it's right is enough.
.
For other people, it's a pointless delusion.
.
Ultimately, I couldn't care less what created the planet - it doesn't make any difference to our lives.
PK
says...
1:27pm Sun 5 Sep 10
.
Are there gods/goddesses? Like everyone else I haven't a clue but I know what I believe in.
.
Even with Professor Hawking's theories, the big question will always remain - who made the universe? In this case, who made the gravity that created the universe? Usual answer - God, so who made God?
.
It is the perpertual question that has been around from the beginning of time and will still be unanswered at the end of time.
.
Until then, I intend to live my life as best I can.
Mr Blackwell
says...
3:26pm Sun 5 Sep 10
often helps people from straying off the path.
.
Thing is, it's usually religion that makes people think there is some sort of 'path' they shouldn't be straying off in the first place.
The Real Librarian
says...
8:08pm Sun 5 Sep 10
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In the begining, when we knew nothing about anything, we thought God was responsibile for everything.
.
Then as we started to learn more, and learned about science and physics and so on, the gaps got smaller.
.
Now the gaps are very small indeed, so there is nowhere left for God, in fact no need.
.
Sorry, but God is redundant.
.
My_View
says...
10:33pm Sun 5 Sep 10
logic, ie: everything has to have a beginning middle and end. Like birth, life and death.
Why does the universe have to have a start, or an end. It has just always been there.
It has to have been, because it cannot have come from nothing. If there was nothing to
begin with then something can't have come from nothing. The only explanation
(apart from god) is that it has just always existed. There is no start middle or end.
If you can get your head past everything having to have a start, then you can
think properly about it and ask questions about that something which has always existed.
The 1st question is not how did it start, but what is it.
Robfm
says...
6:54am Mon 6 Sep 10
I recall when studying for my Psychology Diploma my tutor getting excited when asked, 'where is this all leading'. His response was that 'the exciting thing about Psychology was the journey not the arrival'. I guess that wouldn't be a lot of comfort to a 'patient' looking for the 'destination (resolution) to their problems.
trustnopolitician
says...
8:42am Mon 6 Sep 10
Mr Blackwell
says...
9:06am Mon 6 Sep 10
Robfm
says...
9:22am Mon 6 Sep 10
As for who created God, this link should help.
http://www.doesgodex
ist.org/Pamphlets/Wh
oCreatedGod.html
PaulD
says...
9:37am Mon 6 Sep 10
Robfm wrote:only the one eh? so I take it you don't believe in the thousands of other gods that mankind has bowed before throughout time.
trustnopolitician, there is only one God who has a variety of man given names.
As for who created God, this link should help.
http://www.doesgodex
ist.org/Pamphlets/Wh
oCreatedGod.html
.
Do Hindus and other polytheists share your view of there only being one god?
.
when you realise why you don't believe in Allah, Vishnu, Zeus, Zorastra or any of the other non-Christian gods, then you will understand why I don't believe in yours
Robh
says...
10:02am Mon 6 Sep 10
They say they thing that makes humans different to animals is intelligence. some times I wonder.
I always told my kids I was GOD, Good Old Dad.
tiggermead
says...
10:11am Mon 6 Sep 10
itsamess
says...
10:16am Mon 6 Sep 10
Try as i may i am unable to create something from nothing. The major flaw in Christianity is proven by science. I.E. God created the Universe and finally Adam and Eve. Science tells us how we evolved years ago--but cannot answer where the very first particle came from?
Catch it
says...
11:02am Mon 6 Sep 10
Anyway, god (jesus) was a Jew. If god was a jew then why have christians and muslims taken the Abrahamic god and transformed him into a god of convenience? A lot of muddying the waters there.
Anyway, I'm digressing. The bible was written over a very long period of time- many years after the supposed events. God commands murder and genocide in the bible. Great guy. Karl Marx was kinda right.
Religion has set the world back with its delusional beliefs and crazy ideas. When people were burnt at the stake and persecuted for their scientific ideas, it was called the DARK AGES. Would you rather be a nice person because you were told you'd face eternal damnation, or be one just because you are? People with delusional beliefs and crazy ideation normally see psychiatrists...
Mr Blackwell
says...
12:09pm Mon 6 Sep 10
.
In just the same way, when people talk about 'saving the planet', what they really mean is 'let's try and ensure the planet is suitable for humans for as long as possible'.
.
We actually have no claim whatsoever on this planet and in trying to alter natural climate change to ensure it remains suitable for us to survive, we are defying nature - because all man-made climate change IS part of the natural evolution of the planet.
getconfident, stupid1
says...
2:22pm Mon 6 Sep 10
shannon_satines
says...
2:39pm Mon 6 Sep 10
getconfident, stupid1
says...
3:06pm Mon 6 Sep 10
Always Grumpy
says...
5:46pm Mon 6 Sep 10
Catch it wrote:I think you'll find it was called the 'Dark Age' due to the lack of written history between the Romans leaving and the Normans arriving.
God- supposedly came down to Earth to change a rule that he made himself by dying on Earth. Omnipotent huh? Makes sense.
Anyway, god (jesus) was a Jew. If god was a jew then why have christians and muslims taken the Abrahamic god and transformed him into a god of convenience? A lot of muddying the waters there.
Anyway, I'm digressing. The bible was written over a very long period of time- many years after the supposed events. God commands murder and genocide in the bible. Great guy. Karl Marx was kinda right.
Religion has set the world back with its delusional beliefs and crazy ideas. When people were burnt at the stake and persecuted for their scientific ideas, it was called the DARK AGES. Would you rather be a nice person because you were told you'd face eternal damnation, or be one just because you are? People with delusional beliefs and crazy ideation normally see psychiatrists...
How Soon Is Now
says...
6:14pm Mon 6 Sep 10
My_View wrote:Good post MV. I find the concept of there not being a start to the universe difficult to rationalise though, given our understanding of time.
Humans view on how the universe 'is', is flawed because of the the use of flawed human
logic, ie: everything has to have a beginning middle and end. Like birth, life and death.
Why does the universe have to have a start, or an end. It has just always been there.
It has to have been, because it cannot have come from nothing. If there was nothing to
begin with then something can't have come from nothing. The only explanation
(apart from god) is that it has just always existed. There is no start middle or end.
If you can get your head past everything having to have a start, then you can
think properly about it and ask questions about that something which has always existed.
The 1st question is not how did it start, but what is it.
Since time is what stops everything happening at once and is continuous now (it must be, things are still happening), by definition that means it must have started at some point.
reality_check
says...
10:11pm Mon 6 Sep 10
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Fight!!!!!!
Catch it
says...
10:38pm Mon 6 Sep 10
Always Grumpy wrote:I think you'll find that I never said that was the reason why it was called the 'dark age.' Just that it was an appropriate name.
Catch it wrote:I think you'll find it was called the 'Dark Age' due to the lack of written history between the Romans leaving and the Normans arriving.
God- supposedly came down to Earth to change a rule that he made himself by dying on Earth. Omnipotent huh? Makes sense.
Anyway, god (jesus) was a Jew. If god was a jew then why have christians and muslims taken the Abrahamic god and transformed him into a god of convenience? A lot of muddying the waters there.
Anyway, I'm digressing. The bible was written over a very long period of time- many years after the supposed events. God commands murder and genocide in the bible. Great guy. Karl Marx was kinda right.
Religion has set the world back with its delusional beliefs and crazy ideas. When people were burnt at the stake and persecuted for their scientific ideas, it was called the DARK AGES. Would you rather be a nice person because you were told you'd face eternal damnation, or be one just because you are? People with delusional beliefs and crazy ideation normally see psychiatrists...
What's the deal with people on the internet wanting to make up an argument?
Anyway it's also used to describe the lack intellectual advancements during that period. The lights aren't on and there's no one at home. Mostly due to ridiculous supernatural beliefs.
Thanks for the history lesson though. I'll be sure to remember.
sun_sets
says...
10:56pm Mon 6 Sep 10
Captain Sensible
says...
7:12am Tue 7 Sep 10
shannon_satines
says...
10:29am Tue 7 Sep 10
sun_sets wrote:This debate could go on for ever and ever! I know what conclusion I would draw!
Everyone has own personal theories to this age-old debate and no one really knows the answer.As long as mankind questions the before time mystery and others, and does not accept things at face value. Then I would say that the human race are on course for bigger and better realities and future advancement!
dosomework
says...
12:24pm Tue 7 Sep 10
Robh
says...
5:05pm Tue 7 Sep 10
A(h!)men
sun_sets
says...
8:39pm Tue 7 Sep 10
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How Soon Is Now says...
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