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Showcase for canal plans
2:45pm Tuesday 1st January 2008
A CHARITY supporting a canal for Swindon has opened premises to tell people more about the idea.
The Wiltshire and Berkshire Canal Trust branch invites residents to come and see proposed routes for the restored canal, which first ran through the town in 1807.
A survey considering the feasibility of the concept will be considered by Swindon Council in January.
The newly proposed route will pass by Faringdon Road, deviating slightly from the original path by about 20 yards.
A marina is planned by the bus station.
The charity wants to dispel what it says are unfounded rumours about the scheme.
Its new Regent Circus premises opened for the first time on Friday, and people are invited to browse every Friday and Saturday for the next six months.
"We have had people coming in saying: what is going on?'," said Roy Cartwright, chairman of the Swindon Branch of the Wiltshire and Berkshire Canal Trust.
"There are a lot of misconceptions," he said. "We want to put these right and give the people of Swindon the opportunity to get the true facts.
"A lot of silly things are being said like the canal will fill up with shopping trolleys.
"The survey includes the cost of keeping the canal clean.
"There is also the misconception that the canal will be a cause of flooding but the exact opposite is true."
The proposed direction of the canal had changed from the original route because of sewers and telephone cables underneath, said Mr Cartwright.
He says developers should help pay for the £50m scheme, as they will benefit from it.
Mr Cartwright predicts that it will generate £8m for the economy every year.
David Sheppard, from Rodbourne, studied the plans in the trust's premises.
"I think the canal is a brilliant idea," he said.
"We want to bring the water back to Swindon to make it a tourist spot.
"Most places have a water feature, which makes them appealing. Swindon lost its water feature years ago."
Trust member John Minns said he believed the canal, which was built to transport coal to the town from Somerset, would materialise.
"It will happen," he said.
"In the last year the canal project has moved from something that might happen to something that will happen."
Trust branch chief executive Ken Oliver estimated that the project would take five years to complete.
"We are inviting people to come in and let us know what they think," he said.
Your Say YourSwindon
dalekdave, Swindon says...
4:45pm Tue 1 Jan 08
TheBluesBrother, Swindon says...
4:59pm Tue 1 Jan 08
This old potato keeps on popping it head up most years, and the chances of it happening in Swindon are nil and void.
The health and safety Nazis will have a field day with this one, and all residents at the back of Faringdon road will have to wear Lifejackets.
Andy Newell, Swindon says...
6:04pm Tue 1 Jan 08
Mumstheword, Walcot says...
6:16pm Tue 1 Jan 08
Robin Harris, Swindon says...
8:51pm Tue 1 Jan 08
Swindon is what the residents have made it good or bad. All these schemes people keep coming up with are wasted without the support of the residents.
jack the rippler, east 17 says...
10:13pm Tue 1 Jan 08
COSTS MONEY
The upkeep for this canal:
COSTS MONEY
Will this attract tourisum?
NO
So who is going to pay for it?
ME and YOU.
Its nice doing all this stuff, but if you decide to get of your butts and have a look around the town (not just urban)then you might realise we have some great places here:-
Lydiard (with the exception of the walled garden)
Coate Water
Stanton
Queens Park
Town Gardens
Barbury
These are almost natural sites. Enjoy them, and it dosn't cost you a penny more than you already pay through your taxes. So why pay more?
As soon as the canal is built there will be a whole crowd complaining about.
HER_IN_DOORS, Swindon says...
11:41pm Tue 1 Jan 08
sodbury dave, Swindon says...
7:50am Wed 2 Jan 08
Mumstheword, Walcot says...
10:09am Wed 2 Jan 08
Sod The Canal! Let's Sort The Mechanics Institute Out!
http://www.facebook.
com/group.php?gid=16
096720316
David., says...
10:29am Wed 2 Jan 08
If the government make councils' hold referendums on schemes like this-it is obvious how the voters-who will have to pay up to £50M will respond.
The builder, Old Town says...
10:52am Wed 2 Jan 08
I am not surprised the Mechanics Institute gets dragged in yet again - when are you going to accept the building is owned by a private individual. I and most people I know do not want the council to use our money to restore this wreck of a building - even Donkeys beloved Labour Party weren't stupid enough to do that.
It was a shame when the Canal was filled in. My father used to play along it when he was a kid and the council then was incredibly shortsighted to close it. Almost as bad as when Beeching closed down the branch lines of the railways in the 60's.
I really don't understand the negativity of the people on here (apart from Donkey who is always negative). This proposal could put Swindon on the map and actually improve the way it looks. Anything that does that gets my support.
Grumpy, Swindon says...
11:55am Wed 2 Jan 08
The builder wrote:Here, here and what an opportunity to demolish the Broadgreen area and turn it into a marina.
I think this is a brilliant idea and if they can pull this off it could actually make this town worth visiting.
I am not surprised the Mechanics Institute gets dragged in yet again - when are you going to accept the building is owned by a private individual. I and most people I know do not want the council to use our money to restore this wreck of a building - even Donkeys beloved Labour Party weren't stupid enough to do that.
It was a shame when the Canal was filled in. My father used to play along it when he was a kid and the council then was incredibly shortsighted to close it. Almost as bad as when Beeching closed down the branch lines of the railways in the 60's.
I really don't understand the negativity of the people on here (apart from Donkey who is always negative). This proposal could put Swindon on the map and actually improve the way it looks. Anything that does that gets my support.
Ben, Swindon says...
12:29pm Wed 2 Jan 08
I'd love to see the canal built and echo everything The Builder has to say.
For those of you who repeatedly seem to miss the point that this would be financed privately and not out of our taxes - I would happily pay an extra few pounds a month Council tax to see some positive change in the town.
Mumstheword, Walcot says...
12:48pm Wed 2 Jan 08
Are you really a builder or is that just a name? I just wondered, as I fail to understand how a builder could not see the beauty in the Mechanics Building? I understand this building is owned by a private owner, but the council still has an obigation and a resolution regarding this building needs to be met. It's an important part of Swindon's history as was the canal?
Polymath, Swindon says...
12:56pm Wed 2 Jan 08
Donkey, Swindon says...
1:09pm Wed 2 Jan 08
SwindonBorn, Swindon says...
1:25pm Wed 2 Jan 08
The builder, Old Town says...
1:30pm Wed 2 Jan 08
The Builder?
Are you really a builder or is that just a name? I just wondered, as I fail to understand how a builder could not see the beauty in the Mechanics Building?
Mumstheword Of course the building has architectural quality, I even like the fly tower that was erected in the 30's, but it is a rivately owned building NOT a public one. I, like most sensible thinking people actually want as little state intervention in our lives as possible. I know that supporters of Gordon Brown like his stalinist ideals, but I do not want the council to take on the liability for a builidng like the mechanics over something that would benefit the whole borough i.e. the canal proposals.
I read somewhere (or maybe it was the BBC programme) that the cost of restoring the mechanics would be around £20 million - why on earth would a council want to spend that on one building. If it was that great or that important why don't English Heritage take it on ?
A canal would be brilliant for the whole town not just a few mechanics supporters.
Donkey - you're just being an **** again - braying away, keep flying the red flag heh? someone has to.
LordBelacqua, Swindon says...
1:42pm Wed 2 Jan 08
Whilst I'd like the idea of a canal in Swindon, I'm what's called a realist. Considering that the council will have to manage the waterways anyway, just how exactly will the government not be intervening? The fact that the current owner is not willing to make the MI useful to society is not the government's fault.
How exactly will a canal benefit the community? Other than stopping the Broadgreen residents moaning about the rubbish, that is, and perhaps drowning a few chavs along the way - just what trade will it bring when it is stagnant and littered with trolleys and McDonalds wrappers? Considering that this project will quite obviously cost more than £50 million - especially when one compares their plans to what they intend - the Mechanic's Institute will seem like excellent value for money, rather than this inevitable white elephant.
Mumstheword, Walcot says...
1:45pm Wed 2 Jan 08
Mumstheword, Walcot says...
1:47pm Wed 2 Jan 08
He says developers should help pay for the £50m scheme, as they will benefit from it.
Ok but how much will they agree to contribute and where is the rest of the money going to come from?
Jaki Fairbrother, Swindon says...
1:50pm Wed 2 Jan 08
laura, swindon says...
2:06pm Wed 2 Jan 08
Jaki Fairbrother wrote:Exactly, i love going to reading to sit by the canal and have a nice drink. And it's always pacjed there!
Having seen Banbury and Reading both flourish with the redevelopment of canals in those towns, I can only fully support this proposal and can see the real benefits it will bring to the town.
Think of the wildlife that would flourish from this as well, it's not always negative why do people constantly think this way...yes there will be a disturbance for a while but so be it if we can have something nice at the end of it.
LordBelacqua, Swindon says...
2:17pm Wed 2 Jan 08
laura wrote:Wildlife. In Swindon town center.
Jaki Fairbrother wrote: Having seen Banbury and Reading both flourish with the redevelopment of canals in those towns, I can only fully support this proposal and can see the real benefits it will bring to the town.Exactly, i love going to reading to sit by the canal and have a nice drink. And it's always pacjed there! Think of the wildlife that would flourish from this as well, it's not always negative why do people constantly think this way...yes there will be a disturbance for a while but so be it if we can have something nice at the end of it.
Please, don't get me, or the rest of us, started on the creatures that inhabit the town center.
For the record, they plan to finance this, or at least part of it, with lottery money.
I'll remind people that this is intended to go down Fleming Way - out of cover. Down the middle of the town centre - considering that you will need paths, railings, room for bridges, and, if this scheme for water taxis ever comes to fruition - extra width for extra boats.
Whether this does go ahead or not, £50million is an underestimate of vast proportions, and it won't be long before the supporters moan about the hike in council tax when the businesses say "no more".
Big Mac, says...
2:58pm Wed 2 Jan 08
Unfortunately, my desire to see it back in the town is somewhat diminished by the fact that this will almost certainly be a botch job.
If they can't even quickly and efficiently build a static library on the site of an existing library then I really can't see how they'll manage the canal project in anything other than the half-assed manner they do everything else in Swindon.
I also think jack the rippler makes a very valid point about our existing points of interest in the town.
If the Council actually gave a monkeys they could very easily make far better use of both the Town Gardens and Queens Park. Both are exceptionally pleasant areas within walking distance of the main town areas of Swindon.
Unfortunately, both are treated almost as a burden by the Council, rather than the incredible opportunities for culture, arts, entertainment and recreation that they actually are.
Still, better a canal than yet more prison-style flats.
Al Smith, Swindon, UK says...
3:05pm Wed 2 Jan 08
How many of you know that Milton Keynes has a canal? Is MK a mega tourist attraction? How about Slough?
Jaki mentions Banbury and Reading. You might go to Banbury as tourist - it's a histoic market town, but Reading? Seriously, do people say "ooh lets go to Reading for dayout".
Hey people might even be able to sit by the canal and see the ruins of the Mechanics Institute! WOW!
dalekdave, Swindon says...
4:17pm Wed 2 Jan 08
LordBelacqua, Swindon says...
4:25pm Wed 2 Jan 08
dalekdave wrote:They're not - at least part of it will be funded by the taxpayer via the lottery heritage fund. I suggest:
I can't work out why private investors would stump up £50m anyway - what's in it for them?
http://ww2.swindon.g
ov.uk/moderngov/Publ
ished/C00000622/M000
02552/AI00011647/App
endixSwindonCanalCen
tralRoutePID090307.P
DF
Section 8.0 on page 4.
Big Mac, says...
4:42pm Wed 2 Jan 08
I can't work out why private investors would stump up £50m anyway - what's in it for them?
You may not be aware, but Councils like to place what they call 'Section 106' agreements on developers when granting Planning Applications.
Despite the marketing spin put on Section 106 agreements, what they essentially are is a way for Councils to have new home owners foot the bill for the provision of facilities and infrastructure that we all already pay for via Council Tax.
Basically, a developer submits a planning application for, say, 100 flats. The Council says, OK, you can build them but in order to do so you must also build a new road/art gallery etc.
The developer then works out how much this will cost them and them spreads that cost over the sale price of each of the 100 flats. So, if their Section 106 agreement costs them £500,000 they add £5k to the price of each property... so the Council can get things built for 'free' and the developer doesn't actually contribute anything.
It's pretty much 'blackmail' under a different name.
This is one major reason why many of us believe Councils, and their Planning Departments, are in collusion with developers - the Council benefits from Section 106s on new developments and, of course, the on-going Council Tax revenue that's generated.
Speak to any official in the Council's Planning Department and, within minutes, it becomes very obvious they perceive themselves and developers as 'us' and the ordinary, Council Tax paying residents as 'them'.
The losers are ALWAYS the existing residents in the new development areas as residents basically have the right to object but are almost always overlooked and dismissed. The current law, mainly thanks to John Prescott, is massively biased in favour of the developers.
john c, swindon says...
5:44pm Wed 2 Jan 08
Basically, a developer submits a planning application for, say, 100 flats. The Council says, OK, you can build them but in order to do so you must also build a new road/art gallery etc.
Thank you for this information.
It seems to me that if central government has already decided that we must build 30,000 homes in and around Swindon then the local council getting the developers to pay towards the infrastructure is a good idea.
Whether or not the extra homes or in this case the canal are good ideas is a whole different argument.
Big Mac, says...
5:55pm Wed 2 Jan 08
It seems to me that if central government has already decided that we must build 30,000 homes in and around Swindon then the local council getting the developers to pay towards the infrastructure is a good idea.
I'll spell it out again for you... the developers DON'T actually pay a penny towards the demanded infrastructure - the new home owners will do through the higher house prices they'll be forced to pay.
It is NOT a good state of affairs to have Councils directly benefit from Section 106 agreements because it encourages them to allow inappropriate developments.
It should also be considered that Councils cannot impose very high levels of Section 106 requirements. The law states that their blackmail demands must not lead to developers pulling out of building developments completely, therefore any social gains are always less than the losses the new developments mean for surrounding citizens.
It is the 'brown envelope' in a modern form, that's all.
john c, swindon says...
6:09pm Wed 2 Jan 08
The developers do pay, look at it this way.
The developer buys the land for £x.
He gets his planning permission at £y.
He builds the house at £z.
He does not however work out the sale price by £x + £y + £z + 5% for profit.
Instead he looks at the local housing market and works out what is the best price he can get for the house and sells it for that.
All the worst the section 106 does is at cut into the developers profit margin.
Market forces do not allow the developer to overcharge.
(well not anymore than they all do already)
johnnyb, Staffs says...
6:32pm Wed 2 Jan 08
o.uk the forum for www.boatsandcanals.c
om
Big Mac, says...
7:17pm Wed 2 Jan 08
The developer buys the land for £x.
He gets his planning permission at £y.
He builds the house at £z.
He does not however work out the sale price by £x + £y + £z + 5% for profit.
Instead he looks at the local housing market and works out what is the best price he can get for the house and sells it for that.
I'm not sure you quite realise how developers work.
They have a cost in buying land, building the properties and in the Section 106 the Council attaches to the development.
They then divide that by the number of properties and have a 'cost' figure. That, because of the price of land and available cheap labour, will be nowhere near what the sale price is. The profit margins on flats are huge, hence so many are being built currently.
Yes, they will always look at surrounding house prices and ensure they're comparable but they will ALWAYS make a very large profit on flat/apartment developments because the land used is small and the building costs much lower than for houses.
The new home owners cover ALL the costs associated with the development, including the Section 106 costs.
It is possible that the house prices would remain the same were Section 106 costs not involved, although it's unlikely, but because Section 106 costs ARE wrapped up in the final sale prices, the house buying public never really knows either way.
Market forces do not allow the developer to overcharge.
No, but when Section 106s are applied to virtually all new, largeish developments then 'market forces' simply ensure that all new home owners foot the Section 106 bill.
It's interesting that you believe commercial property developers to be philanthropists though. Not a view that many would share, least of all the developers themselves.
john c, swindon says...
7:36pm Wed 2 Jan 08
It's interesting that you believe commercial property developers to be philanthropists though.
It is obvious from my posts that I do not think developers are philanthropists far from it as I said they look to see what is the best (highest) price they can get.
As you said yourself,
That, because of the price of land and available cheap labour, will be nowhere near what the sale price is. The profit margins on flats are huge,
So why not allow the council to eat into those huge profits a bit.
I do agree with you that,
It is NOT a good state of affairs to have Councils directly benefit from Section 106 agreements because it encourages them to allow inappropriate developments.
What checks and or balances could/should/are in place to stop this.
Captain Sensible, Near Swindon says...
8:59am Thu 3 Jan 08
Steve, Swindon says...
8:56pm Thu 3 Jan 08
I have nothing against Swindon - it is a good place to live with plenty of jobs - but it will never be a TOURIST ATTRACTION !!! Unless we build a Billy Piper Museum and Theme Park with the £50 million.
Dick-Turpin, Swindon says...
8:03pm Sun 10 Feb 08
Your sayYourSwindon
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Donkey, Swindon says...
2:57pm Tue 1 Jan 08
The newly proposed route will pass by Faringdon Road, deviating slightly from the original path by about 20 yards.
Is this figure correct? I think someone needs to clarify, it's nowhere near to the original route!
This canal is sure to do one thing and that is to make Swindon a much bigger butt of amusement than it already has become. But, of course, it will never happen.