Wiltshire Police launch biggest ever single-day drugs bust

Wiltshire Police launch biggest ever single-day drugs bust

Police break open a door during this morning's raids

The police convoy rolling out

Officers gathered at the pre-strike briefing in Lyneham this morning

First published in News
Last updated
Swindon Advertiser: Photograph of the Author by , @BerenCross

WILTSHIRE Police has this morning executed warrants across Swindon and London, in what is the single biggest day of action the force has ever carried out.

This morning's strikes in Swindon town centre and Broad Green districts, as well as Greenwich, are the result of 12 months covert investigation of the growing class A drug trade in the town.

Police chiefs hope this morning's strikes will deal a hammer blow to the dangerous drug networks which bring heroin and crack from the capital to Swindon.

A final number for arrests made and drugs seized will be finalised later today, but chiefs hoped as many as 65 individuals will be arrested and ultimately charged with drugs offences.

Four hundred officers and staff from Wiltshire Police and partner agencies descended upon Swindon in a 50-vehicle convoy, which rolled out from a mass briefing at RAF Lyneham shortly before 9am.

Teams were dispatched to an array of addresses and businesses in the town, briefed to smash doors down, arrest who they find and seize the evidence required to bring about prosecutions.

A raid at a home in Dean Street shortly before 10am saw two people arrested, while officers also targeted businesses in Manchester Road.

A total of 38 addresses across Swindon have been raided by police so far with 19 arrests made.

 

Police gather at the pre-raid briefing in Lyneham this morning

Comments (42)

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10:16am Wed 29 Jan 14

Davey Gravey says...

Won't make a difference though will it?
Nothing will change and the drug cycle will continue.
Won't make a difference though will it? Nothing will change and the drug cycle will continue. Davey Gravey
  • Score: -7

10:18am Wed 29 Jan 14

benzss says...

And so the great and pointless game of whack-a-drug-dealer continues...

Albert Einstein's definition of insanity comes to mind.
And so the great and pointless game of whack-a-drug-dealer continues... Albert Einstein's definition of insanity comes to mind. benzss
  • Score: -15

10:56am Wed 29 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

So what are you suggesting? That they be allowed to continue?
Although the article does not state if there were any drugs found surely anything that slows, stops, prevents this crap in our society has to be a good thing?
So what are you suggesting? That they be allowed to continue? Although the article does not state if there were any drugs found surely anything that slows, stops, prevents this crap in our society has to be a good thing? Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: 31

11:02am Wed 29 Jan 14

Phantom Poster says...

Should make this weekend a bit more expensive :(
Should make this weekend a bit more expensive :( Phantom Poster
  • Score: -5

11:07am Wed 29 Jan 14

benzss says...

Badgersgetabadname wrote:
So what are you suggesting? That they be allowed to continue?
Although the article does not state if there were any drugs found surely anything that slows, stops, prevents this crap in our society has to be a good thing?
But it does none of those things. Actions like this and the laws they're based on make nothing better and everything worse.
[quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: So what are you suggesting? That they be allowed to continue? Although the article does not state if there were any drugs found surely anything that slows, stops, prevents this crap in our society has to be a good thing?[/p][/quote]But it does none of those things. Actions like this and the laws they're based on make nothing better and everything worse. benzss
  • Score: -14

11:21am Wed 29 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

benzss wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
So what are you suggesting? That they be allowed to continue?
Although the article does not state if there were any drugs found surely anything that slows, stops, prevents this crap in our society has to be a good thing?
But it does none of those things. Actions like this and the laws they're based on make nothing better and everything worse.
How does it make everything worse?
what would you suggest?
I agree that the problem is far bigger than local dealers why do people feel the need to use drugs or drink themselves into oblivion. Society knows these things are harmful but continues anyway.
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: So what are you suggesting? That they be allowed to continue? Although the article does not state if there were any drugs found surely anything that slows, stops, prevents this crap in our society has to be a good thing?[/p][/quote]But it does none of those things. Actions like this and the laws they're based on make nothing better and everything worse.[/p][/quote]How does it make everything worse? what would you suggest? I agree that the problem is far bigger than local dealers why do people feel the need to use drugs or drink themselves into oblivion. Society knows these things are harmful but continues anyway. Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: 17

11:41am Wed 29 Jan 14

ladd135 says...

I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.
I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel. ladd135
  • Score: 30

12:00pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Dr Martin says...

Badgersgetabadname wrote:
So what are you suggesting? That they be allowed to continue?
Although the article does not state if there were any drugs found surely anything that slows, stops, prevents this crap in our society has to be a good thing?
Good Post
[quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: So what are you suggesting? That they be allowed to continue? Although the article does not state if there were any drugs found surely anything that slows, stops, prevents this crap in our society has to be a good thing?[/p][/quote]Good Post Dr Martin
  • Score: 19

12:38pm Wed 29 Jan 14

A.Baron-Cohen says...

I feel safer already sic
I feel safer already sic A.Baron-Cohen
  • Score: -13

12:40pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

Have previous comments been deleted? Cant see them?
Have previous comments been deleted? Cant see them? Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: -1

12:47pm Wed 29 Jan 14

SomeoneWhoIsntMe says...

ladd135 wrote:
I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.
How are they ruining our childrens lives?

If you can't raise a child to have good cognitive functions which allow them to deal with the pressures of the world, instead of turning to drugs (inc. alcohol/tobacco), then you are ruining your own children's lives.
[quote][p][bold]ladd135[/bold] wrote: I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.[/p][/quote]How are they ruining our childrens lives? If you can't raise a child to have good cognitive functions which allow them to deal with the pressures of the world, instead of turning to drugs (inc. alcohol/tobacco), then you are ruining your own children's lives. SomeoneWhoIsntMe
  • Score: -11

12:57pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

ladd135 wrote:
I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.
Exactly although a drip in the ocean the harder it is for this scum to set up and maintain a business the less likely they will stay here....I know that sounds like moving the problem but unless it is confronted somewhere it will never change. The attitude of nothing will change is a short cut to thinking and an example of one of the things wrong with the town in general.
[quote][p][bold]ladd135[/bold] wrote: I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.[/p][/quote]Exactly although a drip in the ocean the harder it is for this scum to set up and maintain a business the less likely they will stay here....I know that sounds like moving the problem but unless it is confronted somewhere it will never change. The attitude of nothing will change is a short cut to thinking and an example of one of the things wrong with the town in general. Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: 13

12:58pm Wed 29 Jan 14

dukeofM4 says...

This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay.

Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.
This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay. Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO. dukeofM4
  • Score: -3

1:04pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

SomeoneWhoIsntMe wrote:
ladd135 wrote:
I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.
How are they ruining our childrens lives?

If you can't raise a child to have good cognitive functions which allow them to deal with the pressures of the world, instead of turning to drugs (inc. alcohol/tobacco), then you are ruining your own children's lives.
Not sure about the lives of specifically children but we all have the right not to live next door to an illegal business....This creates a toxic atmosphere that has consequences for all.
We know these things (Alcahol, tobacco and drugs) are unhealthy but still continue to use and abuse them. Why is society so dependent on these things?
[quote][p][bold]SomeoneWhoIsntMe[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ladd135[/bold] wrote: I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.[/p][/quote]How are they ruining our childrens lives? If you can't raise a child to have good cognitive functions which allow them to deal with the pressures of the world, instead of turning to drugs (inc. alcohol/tobacco), then you are ruining your own children's lives.[/p][/quote]Not sure about the lives of specifically children but we all have the right not to live next door to an illegal business....This creates a toxic atmosphere that has consequences for all. We know these things (Alcahol, tobacco and drugs) are unhealthy but still continue to use and abuse them. Why is society so dependent on these things? Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: 6

1:10pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

dukeofM4 wrote:
This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay.

Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.
How would you suggest the problem be tackled?
[quote][p][bold]dukeofM4[/bold] wrote: This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay. Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.[/p][/quote]How would you suggest the problem be tackled? Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: 10

1:17pm Wed 29 Jan 14

house on the hill says...

Badgersgetabadname wrote:
SomeoneWhoIsntMe wrote:
ladd135 wrote:
I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.
How are they ruining our childrens lives?

If you can't raise a child to have good cognitive functions which allow them to deal with the pressures of the world, instead of turning to drugs (inc. alcohol/tobacco), then you are ruining your own children's lives.
Not sure about the lives of specifically children but we all have the right not to live next door to an illegal business....This creates a toxic atmosphere that has consequences for all.
We know these things (Alcahol, tobacco and drugs) are unhealthy but still continue to use and abuse them. Why is society so dependent on these things?
Because people are basically weak and need some sort of "crutch" to survive and would rather resort to mind altering drugs than build any sort of intelligence or imagination and live in the real world. Loads of them still think there is a God for goodness sake. As with everything its about taking the easy option rather than the right one. Clearly some on here have never lost friends or relatives to drugs or they would not be so cavalier with their pathetic attitudes!
[quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SomeoneWhoIsntMe[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ladd135[/bold] wrote: I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.[/p][/quote]How are they ruining our childrens lives? If you can't raise a child to have good cognitive functions which allow them to deal with the pressures of the world, instead of turning to drugs (inc. alcohol/tobacco), then you are ruining your own children's lives.[/p][/quote]Not sure about the lives of specifically children but we all have the right not to live next door to an illegal business....This creates a toxic atmosphere that has consequences for all. We know these things (Alcahol, tobacco and drugs) are unhealthy but still continue to use and abuse them. Why is society so dependent on these things?[/p][/quote]Because people are basically weak and need some sort of "crutch" to survive and would rather resort to mind altering drugs than build any sort of intelligence or imagination and live in the real world. Loads of them still think there is a God for goodness sake. As with everything its about taking the easy option rather than the right one. Clearly some on here have never lost friends or relatives to drugs or they would not be so cavalier with their pathetic attitudes! house on the hill
  • Score: 6

1:26pm Wed 29 Jan 14

benzss says...

Badgersgetabadname wrote:
dukeofM4 wrote:
This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay.

Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.
How would you suggest the problem be tackled?
Well, here's the thing. A lot of the problems caused by drugs are in fact caused by their prohibition. We've seen this in the past (alcohol prohibition in early C20th US, which 'worked' in that fewer people drank, but crime skyrocketed), and can see the effects now (Portugal has decriminalised all drugs and seen lower crime and higher treatment rates).

So what are the 'problems'?

1) Addiction - when drug use turns to drug abuse, you basically have little choice but to become subsumed into the black market criminal subculture where the drugs are located. This means you are more likely to be viewed as a criminal rather than somebody who needs treatment. In any case, short of passing some horrendously illeberal law banning all substances which may cause addiction, addiction is here to stay and we need to look at how we react to it rather than trying uselessly to stop it.

2) Crime - two types of crime, really. Crimes in the supply chain and crimes committed by people who are 'on drugs'. The first one is much easier to deal with as the solution is quite simple - make the drugs legal. This would quite obviously remove most incentive for violence (turf wars, violent dispute resolution). Secondly, if drug abusers were not forced (I say forced... compelled) to use the criminal black market, it is less likely - not entirely unlikely, as alcohol shows - that they will turn to crime. If the drug is legal, the incentive is lessened.

3) Quality control - you hear about these kids who take pill X in club Y and then die. That happens because the purity or even the type of drug is unknown. If drugs were legal, their production and supply could be regulated and held to standards similar to food and drink. No more accidental overdoses and almost complete transparency.

The thing is that you *will not* stop the supply or the use of drugs. Even in countries with death penalties for dealing and even possession still have big drug problems, whether it be meth or alcohol.

So the choice is basically either take a bigoted view of drugs and enforce prohibition for prohibition's sake (or for some nebulous moral reason you can't really describe), or take the view that *harm reduction* is more important than a moral crusade.

In practical terms, I'd start legalising drug-by-drug and assess each one as the process goes along. Start with the next-to-harmless drugs like cannabis and ecstasy, moving through the hallucinogenics and then take stock when you get to the genuinely harmful ones like meth and heroin (for which alternatives exist, by the way - like opium. Did you know heroin came about because opium was prohibited?).
[quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]dukeofM4[/bold] wrote: This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay. Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.[/p][/quote]How would you suggest the problem be tackled?[/p][/quote]Well, here's the thing. A lot of the problems caused by drugs are in fact caused by their prohibition. We've seen this in the past (alcohol prohibition in early C20th US, which 'worked' in that fewer people drank, but crime skyrocketed), and can see the effects now (Portugal has decriminalised all drugs and seen lower crime and higher treatment rates). So what are the 'problems'? 1) Addiction - when drug use turns to drug abuse, you basically have little choice but to become subsumed into the black market criminal subculture where the drugs are located. This means you are more likely to be viewed as a criminal rather than somebody who needs treatment. In any case, short of passing some horrendously illeberal law banning all substances which may cause addiction, addiction is here to stay and we need to look at how we react to it rather than trying uselessly to stop it. 2) Crime - two types of crime, really. Crimes in the supply chain and crimes committed by people who are 'on drugs'. The first one is much easier to deal with as the solution is quite simple - make the drugs legal. This would quite obviously remove most incentive for violence (turf wars, violent dispute resolution). Secondly, if drug abusers were not forced (I say forced... compelled) to use the criminal black market, it is less likely - not entirely unlikely, as alcohol shows - that they will turn to crime. If the drug is legal, the incentive is lessened. 3) Quality control - you hear about these kids who take pill X in club Y and then die. That happens because the purity or even the type of drug is unknown. If drugs were legal, their production and supply could be regulated and held to standards similar to food and drink. No more accidental overdoses and almost complete transparency. The thing is that you *will not* stop the supply or the use of drugs. Even in countries with death penalties for dealing and even possession still have big drug problems, whether it be meth or alcohol. So the choice is basically either take a bigoted view of drugs and enforce prohibition for prohibition's sake (or for some nebulous moral reason you can't really describe), or take the view that *harm reduction* is more important than a moral crusade. In practical terms, I'd start legalising drug-by-drug and assess each one as the process goes along. Start with the next-to-harmless drugs like cannabis and ecstasy, moving through the hallucinogenics and then take stock when you get to the genuinely harmful ones like meth and heroin (for which alternatives exist, by the way - like opium. Did you know heroin came about because opium was prohibited?). benzss
  • Score: 9

1:27pm Wed 29 Jan 14

mistertwist says...

Badgersgetabadname wrote:
dukeofM4 wrote:
This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay.

Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.
How would you suggest the problem be tackled?
Legalise everything take the power away from the drug dealers. The only solution to the problem
[quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]dukeofM4[/bold] wrote: This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay. Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.[/p][/quote]How would you suggest the problem be tackled?[/p][/quote]Legalise everything take the power away from the drug dealers. The only solution to the problem mistertwist
  • Score: -2

1:29pm Wed 29 Jan 14

benzss says...

Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.
Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'. benzss
  • Score: -4

1:33pm Wed 29 Jan 14

SlantedView says...

There is no argument. Drugs are illegal and everything should be done to minimise their impact on society. It's bad enough that the swindon streets look like sh*t because they aren't being maintained. The last thing the locals need are these drop-outs peddling their crap on the streets. And there seems to be way too many drop-outs.
There is no argument. Drugs are illegal and everything should be done to minimise their impact on society. It's bad enough that the swindon streets look like sh*t because they aren't being maintained. The last thing the locals need are these drop-outs peddling their crap on the streets. And there seems to be way too many drop-outs. SlantedView
  • Score: 7

1:35pm Wed 29 Jan 14

benzss says...

SlantedView wrote:
There is no argument. Drugs are illegal and everything should be done to minimise their impact on society. It's bad enough that the swindon streets look like sh*t because they aren't being maintained. The last thing the locals need are these drop-outs peddling their crap on the streets. And there seems to be way too many drop-outs.
Laws can be wrong, you know.
[quote][p][bold]SlantedView[/bold] wrote: There is no argument. Drugs are illegal and everything should be done to minimise their impact on society. It's bad enough that the swindon streets look like sh*t because they aren't being maintained. The last thing the locals need are these drop-outs peddling their crap on the streets. And there seems to be way too many drop-outs.[/p][/quote]Laws can be wrong, you know. benzss
  • Score: -4

1:43pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

benzss wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
dukeofM4 wrote:
This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay.

Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.
How would you suggest the problem be tackled?
Well, here's the thing. A lot of the problems caused by drugs are in fact caused by their prohibition. We've seen this in the past (alcohol prohibition in early C20th US, which 'worked' in that fewer people drank, but crime skyrocketed), and can see the effects now (Portugal has decriminalised all drugs and seen lower crime and higher treatment rates).

So what are the 'problems'?

1) Addiction - when drug use turns to drug abuse, you basically have little choice but to become subsumed into the black market criminal subculture where the drugs are located. This means you are more likely to be viewed as a criminal rather than somebody who needs treatment. In any case, short of passing some horrendously illeberal law banning all substances which may cause addiction, addiction is here to stay and we need to look at how we react to it rather than trying uselessly to stop it.

2) Crime - two types of crime, really. Crimes in the supply chain and crimes committed by people who are 'on drugs'. The first one is much easier to deal with as the solution is quite simple - make the drugs legal. This would quite obviously remove most incentive for violence (turf wars, violent dispute resolution). Secondly, if drug abusers were not forced (I say forced... compelled) to use the criminal black market, it is less likely - not entirely unlikely, as alcohol shows - that they will turn to crime. If the drug is legal, the incentive is lessened.

3) Quality control - you hear about these kids who take pill X in club Y and then die. That happens because the purity or even the type of drug is unknown. If drugs were legal, their production and supply could be regulated and held to standards similar to food and drink. No more accidental overdoses and almost complete transparency.

The thing is that you *will not* stop the supply or the use of drugs. Even in countries with death penalties for dealing and even possession still have big drug problems, whether it be meth or alcohol.

So the choice is basically either take a bigoted view of drugs and enforce prohibition for prohibition's sake (or for some nebulous moral reason you can't really describe), or take the view that *harm reduction* is more important than a moral crusade.

In practical terms, I'd start legalising drug-by-drug and assess each one as the process goes along. Start with the next-to-harmless drugs like cannabis and ecstasy, moving through the hallucinogenics and then take stock when you get to the genuinely harmful ones like meth and heroin (for which alternatives exist, by the way - like opium. Did you know heroin came about because opium was prohibited?).
Wow an actual thought out approach....Although I do not think all drugs should be legal and quality control has allot to do with drug on drug problems I think your proposal of phased inclusion would be worth looking at.
I do not see this ever happening in this country, they would be taxed like all things and like tobacco would be heavily taxed. Black market tobacco is booming business it would be reasonable to think this would happen with drugs especially when they can be grown/made at home. No moral crusade if that was the case surely we would look to ban booze and a large number of over the counter drugs that when abused cause as much harm as illegal drugs.
Drugs will not be made legal in the UK ever however I only see the demand increasing. Why people use in the first place would be an interesting study.
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]dukeofM4[/bold] wrote: This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay. Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.[/p][/quote]How would you suggest the problem be tackled?[/p][/quote]Well, here's the thing. A lot of the problems caused by drugs are in fact caused by their prohibition. We've seen this in the past (alcohol prohibition in early C20th US, which 'worked' in that fewer people drank, but crime skyrocketed), and can see the effects now (Portugal has decriminalised all drugs and seen lower crime and higher treatment rates). So what are the 'problems'? 1) Addiction - when drug use turns to drug abuse, you basically have little choice but to become subsumed into the black market criminal subculture where the drugs are located. This means you are more likely to be viewed as a criminal rather than somebody who needs treatment. In any case, short of passing some horrendously illeberal law banning all substances which may cause addiction, addiction is here to stay and we need to look at how we react to it rather than trying uselessly to stop it. 2) Crime - two types of crime, really. Crimes in the supply chain and crimes committed by people who are 'on drugs'. The first one is much easier to deal with as the solution is quite simple - make the drugs legal. This would quite obviously remove most incentive for violence (turf wars, violent dispute resolution). Secondly, if drug abusers were not forced (I say forced... compelled) to use the criminal black market, it is less likely - not entirely unlikely, as alcohol shows - that they will turn to crime. If the drug is legal, the incentive is lessened. 3) Quality control - you hear about these kids who take pill X in club Y and then die. That happens because the purity or even the type of drug is unknown. If drugs were legal, their production and supply could be regulated and held to standards similar to food and drink. No more accidental overdoses and almost complete transparency. The thing is that you *will not* stop the supply or the use of drugs. Even in countries with death penalties for dealing and even possession still have big drug problems, whether it be meth or alcohol. So the choice is basically either take a bigoted view of drugs and enforce prohibition for prohibition's sake (or for some nebulous moral reason you can't really describe), or take the view that *harm reduction* is more important than a moral crusade. In practical terms, I'd start legalising drug-by-drug and assess each one as the process goes along. Start with the next-to-harmless drugs like cannabis and ecstasy, moving through the hallucinogenics and then take stock when you get to the genuinely harmful ones like meth and heroin (for which alternatives exist, by the way - like opium. Did you know heroin came about because opium was prohibited?).[/p][/quote]Wow an actual thought out approach....Although I do not think all drugs should be legal and quality control has allot to do with drug on drug problems I think your proposal of phased inclusion would be worth looking at. I do not see this ever happening in this country, they would be taxed like all things and like tobacco would be heavily taxed. Black market tobacco is booming business it would be reasonable to think this would happen with drugs especially when they can be grown/made at home. No moral crusade if that was the case surely we would look to ban booze and a large number of over the counter drugs that when abused cause as much harm as illegal drugs. Drugs will not be made legal in the UK ever however I only see the demand increasing. Why people use in the first place would be an interesting study. Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: 1

1:51pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

house on the hill wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
SomeoneWhoIsntMe wrote:
ladd135 wrote:
I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.
How are they ruining our childrens lives?

If you can't raise a child to have good cognitive functions which allow them to deal with the pressures of the world, instead of turning to drugs (inc. alcohol/tobacco), then you are ruining your own children's lives.
Not sure about the lives of specifically children but we all have the right not to live next door to an illegal business....This creates a toxic atmosphere that has consequences for all.
We know these things (Alcahol, tobacco and drugs) are unhealthy but still continue to use and abuse them. Why is society so dependent on these things?
Because people are basically weak and need some sort of "crutch" to survive and would rather resort to mind altering drugs than build any sort of intelligence or imagination and live in the real world. Loads of them still think there is a God for goodness sake. As with everything its about taking the easy option rather than the right one. Clearly some on here have never lost friends or relatives to drugs or they would not be so cavalier with their pathetic attitudes!
I have lost a number of friends and family to drugs over the years.
"People are basically weak" nice to see you have trust or faith in fellow man.
Not sure why the mention of religion surely of any "crutches" this would be least harmful.
You mentioned taking an easy option rather the the right one? just curious but what is the right one?
[quote][p][bold]house on the hill[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SomeoneWhoIsntMe[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ladd135[/bold] wrote: I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.[/p][/quote]How are they ruining our childrens lives? If you can't raise a child to have good cognitive functions which allow them to deal with the pressures of the world, instead of turning to drugs (inc. alcohol/tobacco), then you are ruining your own children's lives.[/p][/quote]Not sure about the lives of specifically children but we all have the right not to live next door to an illegal business....This creates a toxic atmosphere that has consequences for all. We know these things (Alcahol, tobacco and drugs) are unhealthy but still continue to use and abuse them. Why is society so dependent on these things?[/p][/quote]Because people are basically weak and need some sort of "crutch" to survive and would rather resort to mind altering drugs than build any sort of intelligence or imagination and live in the real world. Loads of them still think there is a God for goodness sake. As with everything its about taking the easy option rather than the right one. Clearly some on here have never lost friends or relatives to drugs or they would not be so cavalier with their pathetic attitudes![/p][/quote]I have lost a number of friends and family to drugs over the years. "People are basically weak" nice to see you have trust or faith in fellow man. Not sure why the mention of religion surely of any "crutches" this would be least harmful. You mentioned taking an easy option rather the the right one? just curious but what is the right one? Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: -4

1:56pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

benzss wrote:
Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.
Any support for earlier comment of how raids such as today are a bad thing? You said it makes everything worse?
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.[/p][/quote]Any support for earlier comment of how raids such as today are a bad thing? You said it makes everything worse? Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: -3

2:03pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

Badgersgetabadname wrote:
benzss wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
dukeofM4 wrote:
This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay.

Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.
How would you suggest the problem be tackled?
Well, here's the thing. A lot of the problems caused by drugs are in fact caused by their prohibition. We've seen this in the past (alcohol prohibition in early C20th US, which 'worked' in that fewer people drank, but crime skyrocketed), and can see the effects now (Portugal has decriminalised all drugs and seen lower crime and higher treatment rates).

So what are the 'problems'?

1) Addiction - when drug use turns to drug abuse, you basically have little choice but to become subsumed into the black market criminal subculture where the drugs are located. This means you are more likely to be viewed as a criminal rather than somebody who needs treatment. In any case, short of passing some horrendously illeberal law banning all substances which may cause addiction, addiction is here to stay and we need to look at how we react to it rather than trying uselessly to stop it.

2) Crime - two types of crime, really. Crimes in the supply chain and crimes committed by people who are 'on drugs'. The first one is much easier to deal with as the solution is quite simple - make the drugs legal. This would quite obviously remove most incentive for violence (turf wars, violent dispute resolution). Secondly, if drug abusers were not forced (I say forced... compelled) to use the criminal black market, it is less likely - not entirely unlikely, as alcohol shows - that they will turn to crime. If the drug is legal, the incentive is lessened.

3) Quality control - you hear about these kids who take pill X in club Y and then die. That happens because the purity or even the type of drug is unknown. If drugs were legal, their production and supply could be regulated and held to standards similar to food and drink. No more accidental overdoses and almost complete transparency.

The thing is that you *will not* stop the supply or the use of drugs. Even in countries with death penalties for dealing and even possession still have big drug problems, whether it be meth or alcohol.

So the choice is basically either take a bigoted view of drugs and enforce prohibition for prohibition's sake (or for some nebulous moral reason you can't really describe), or take the view that *harm reduction* is more important than a moral crusade.

In practical terms, I'd start legalising drug-by-drug and assess each one as the process goes along. Start with the next-to-harmless drugs like cannabis and ecstasy, moving through the hallucinogenics and then take stock when you get to the genuinely harmful ones like meth and heroin (for which alternatives exist, by the way - like opium. Did you know heroin came about because opium was prohibited?).
Wow an actual thought out approach....Although I do not think all drugs should be legal and quality control has allot to do with drug on drug problems I think your proposal of phased inclusion would be worth looking at.
I do not see this ever happening in this country, they would be taxed like all things and like tobacco would be heavily taxed. Black market tobacco is booming business it would be reasonable to think this would happen with drugs especially when they can be grown/made at home. No moral crusade if that was the case surely we would look to ban booze and a large number of over the counter drugs that when abused cause as much harm as illegal drugs.
Drugs will not be made legal in the UK ever however I only see the demand increasing. Why people use in the first place would be an interesting study.
I agreed with you that drug dealers make excellent tax free money with a seemingly limitless amount of newer younger dealers ready to take the place of the last.
When kids see the guy in the flash car with money and respect why do they treat this as a role model?
[quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]dukeofM4[/bold] wrote: This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay. Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.[/p][/quote]How would you suggest the problem be tackled?[/p][/quote]Well, here's the thing. A lot of the problems caused by drugs are in fact caused by their prohibition. We've seen this in the past (alcohol prohibition in early C20th US, which 'worked' in that fewer people drank, but crime skyrocketed), and can see the effects now (Portugal has decriminalised all drugs and seen lower crime and higher treatment rates). So what are the 'problems'? 1) Addiction - when drug use turns to drug abuse, you basically have little choice but to become subsumed into the black market criminal subculture where the drugs are located. This means you are more likely to be viewed as a criminal rather than somebody who needs treatment. In any case, short of passing some horrendously illeberal law banning all substances which may cause addiction, addiction is here to stay and we need to look at how we react to it rather than trying uselessly to stop it. 2) Crime - two types of crime, really. Crimes in the supply chain and crimes committed by people who are 'on drugs'. The first one is much easier to deal with as the solution is quite simple - make the drugs legal. This would quite obviously remove most incentive for violence (turf wars, violent dispute resolution). Secondly, if drug abusers were not forced (I say forced... compelled) to use the criminal black market, it is less likely - not entirely unlikely, as alcohol shows - that they will turn to crime. If the drug is legal, the incentive is lessened. 3) Quality control - you hear about these kids who take pill X in club Y and then die. That happens because the purity or even the type of drug is unknown. If drugs were legal, their production and supply could be regulated and held to standards similar to food and drink. No more accidental overdoses and almost complete transparency. The thing is that you *will not* stop the supply or the use of drugs. Even in countries with death penalties for dealing and even possession still have big drug problems, whether it be meth or alcohol. So the choice is basically either take a bigoted view of drugs and enforce prohibition for prohibition's sake (or for some nebulous moral reason you can't really describe), or take the view that *harm reduction* is more important than a moral crusade. In practical terms, I'd start legalising drug-by-drug and assess each one as the process goes along. Start with the next-to-harmless drugs like cannabis and ecstasy, moving through the hallucinogenics and then take stock when you get to the genuinely harmful ones like meth and heroin (for which alternatives exist, by the way - like opium. Did you know heroin came about because opium was prohibited?).[/p][/quote]Wow an actual thought out approach....Although I do not think all drugs should be legal and quality control has allot to do with drug on drug problems I think your proposal of phased inclusion would be worth looking at. I do not see this ever happening in this country, they would be taxed like all things and like tobacco would be heavily taxed. Black market tobacco is booming business it would be reasonable to think this would happen with drugs especially when they can be grown/made at home. No moral crusade if that was the case surely we would look to ban booze and a large number of over the counter drugs that when abused cause as much harm as illegal drugs. Drugs will not be made legal in the UK ever however I only see the demand increasing. Why people use in the first place would be an interesting study.[/p][/quote]I agreed with you that drug dealers make excellent tax free money with a seemingly limitless amount of newer younger dealers ready to take the place of the last. When kids see the guy in the flash car with money and respect why do they treat this as a role model? Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: 2

2:07pm Wed 29 Jan 14

benzss says...

Badgersgetabadname wrote:
benzss wrote:
Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.
Any support for earlier comment of how raids such as today are a bad thing? You said it makes everything worse?
I was referring to the overall situation rather than this specific raid.
[quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.[/p][/quote]Any support for earlier comment of how raids such as today are a bad thing? You said it makes everything worse?[/p][/quote]I was referring to the overall situation rather than this specific raid. benzss
  • Score: 0

2:10pm Wed 29 Jan 14

house on the hill says...

Badgersgetabadname wrote:
house on the hill wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
SomeoneWhoIsntMe wrote:
ladd135 wrote:
I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.
How are they ruining our childrens lives?

If you can't raise a child to have good cognitive functions which allow them to deal with the pressures of the world, instead of turning to drugs (inc. alcohol/tobacco), then you are ruining your own children's lives.
Not sure about the lives of specifically children but we all have the right not to live next door to an illegal business....This creates a toxic atmosphere that has consequences for all.
We know these things (Alcahol, tobacco and drugs) are unhealthy but still continue to use and abuse them. Why is society so dependent on these things?
Because people are basically weak and need some sort of "crutch" to survive and would rather resort to mind altering drugs than build any sort of intelligence or imagination and live in the real world. Loads of them still think there is a God for goodness sake. As with everything its about taking the easy option rather than the right one. Clearly some on here have never lost friends or relatives to drugs or they would not be so cavalier with their pathetic attitudes!
I have lost a number of friends and family to drugs over the years.
"People are basically weak" nice to see you have trust or faith in fellow man.
Not sure why the mention of religion surely of any "crutches" this would be least harmful.
You mentioned taking an easy option rather the the right one? just curious but what is the right one?
Using your inner strength to get you through life and growing a backbone rather than running to a bottle or a packet or a pill or a book when times get tough. Life is so much more enjoyable in the real world.

So tell me, how many people do you know that would honestly trust with your life, I bet if you were realistic it wouldn't be that many, sad but true and I mean real friend not just "mates". The very fact that so many clearly use drugs points to their weakness.
[quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]house on the hill[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SomeoneWhoIsntMe[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ladd135[/bold] wrote: I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.[/p][/quote]How are they ruining our childrens lives? If you can't raise a child to have good cognitive functions which allow them to deal with the pressures of the world, instead of turning to drugs (inc. alcohol/tobacco), then you are ruining your own children's lives.[/p][/quote]Not sure about the lives of specifically children but we all have the right not to live next door to an illegal business....This creates a toxic atmosphere that has consequences for all. We know these things (Alcahol, tobacco and drugs) are unhealthy but still continue to use and abuse them. Why is society so dependent on these things?[/p][/quote]Because people are basically weak and need some sort of "crutch" to survive and would rather resort to mind altering drugs than build any sort of intelligence or imagination and live in the real world. Loads of them still think there is a God for goodness sake. As with everything its about taking the easy option rather than the right one. Clearly some on here have never lost friends or relatives to drugs or they would not be so cavalier with their pathetic attitudes![/p][/quote]I have lost a number of friends and family to drugs over the years. "People are basically weak" nice to see you have trust or faith in fellow man. Not sure why the mention of religion surely of any "crutches" this would be least harmful. You mentioned taking an easy option rather the the right one? just curious but what is the right one?[/p][/quote]Using your inner strength to get you through life and growing a backbone rather than running to a bottle or a packet or a pill or a book when times get tough. Life is so much more enjoyable in the real world. So tell me, how many people do you know that would honestly trust with your life, I bet if you were realistic it wouldn't be that many, sad but true and I mean real friend not just "mates". The very fact that so many clearly use drugs points to their weakness. house on the hill
  • Score: 6

2:12pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

benzss wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
benzss wrote:
Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.
Any support for earlier comment of how raids such as today are a bad thing? You said it makes everything worse?
I was referring to the overall situation rather than this specific raid.
Ok so how does combating the sale of heroin make things worse overall?
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.[/p][/quote]Any support for earlier comment of how raids such as today are a bad thing? You said it makes everything worse?[/p][/quote]I was referring to the overall situation rather than this specific raid.[/p][/quote]Ok so how does combating the sale of heroin make things worse overall? Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: 0

2:16pm Wed 29 Jan 14

benzss says...

Badgersgetabadname wrote:
benzss wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
benzss wrote:
Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.
Any support for earlier comment of how raids such as today are a bad thing? You said it makes everything worse?
I was referring to the overall situation rather than this specific raid.
Ok so how does combating the sale of heroin make things worse overall?
In this and similar instances, it's just a waste of police resources, people are criminalised when they're probably not, or would not be, criminals in the real sense, the vacuum will be created and quickly filled by violent and competitive gangs, etc etc.

Will this or other raids make things worse in the great scheme of things? No, not really. But my point is that they're not making anything better - the net result is a loss for all involved, except perhaps the police's PR department.

All that'll happen is some drugs will go up in price for a bit until supply can be distributed as effectively as it was. That's it.
[quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.[/p][/quote]Any support for earlier comment of how raids such as today are a bad thing? You said it makes everything worse?[/p][/quote]I was referring to the overall situation rather than this specific raid.[/p][/quote]Ok so how does combating the sale of heroin make things worse overall?[/p][/quote]In this and similar instances, it's just a waste of police resources, people are criminalised when they're probably not, or would not be, criminals in the real sense, the vacuum will be created and quickly filled by violent and competitive gangs, etc etc. Will this or other raids make things worse in the great scheme of things? No, not really. But my point is that they're not making anything better - the net result is a loss for all involved, except perhaps the police's PR department. All that'll happen is some drugs will go up in price for a bit until supply can be distributed as effectively as it was. That's it. benzss
  • Score: 0

2:28pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

benzss wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
benzss wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
benzss wrote:
Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.
Any support for earlier comment of how raids such as today are a bad thing? You said it makes everything worse?
I was referring to the overall situation rather than this specific raid.
Ok so how does combating the sale of heroin make things worse overall?
In this and similar instances, it's just a waste of police resources, people are criminalised when they're probably not, or would not be, criminals in the real sense, the vacuum will be created and quickly filled by violent and competitive gangs, etc etc.

Will this or other raids make things worse in the great scheme of things? No, not really. But my point is that they're not making anything better - the net result is a loss for all involved, except perhaps the police's PR department.

All that'll happen is some drugs will go up in price for a bit until supply can be distributed as effectively as it was. That's it.
So the new violent gangs would be taking over from the previous.....violent gangs?????
So your actual point is that nothing has changed? and that everything is not actually made worse by policing.
If there was to be no policing I may start my own business...why not if nobody is going to argue or have a problem with it next door to them.
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.[/p][/quote]Any support for earlier comment of how raids such as today are a bad thing? You said it makes everything worse?[/p][/quote]I was referring to the overall situation rather than this specific raid.[/p][/quote]Ok so how does combating the sale of heroin make things worse overall?[/p][/quote]In this and similar instances, it's just a waste of police resources, people are criminalised when they're probably not, or would not be, criminals in the real sense, the vacuum will be created and quickly filled by violent and competitive gangs, etc etc. Will this or other raids make things worse in the great scheme of things? No, not really. But my point is that they're not making anything better - the net result is a loss for all involved, except perhaps the police's PR department. All that'll happen is some drugs will go up in price for a bit until supply can be distributed as effectively as it was. That's it.[/p][/quote]So the new violent gangs would be taking over from the previous.....violent gangs????? So your actual point is that nothing has changed? and that everything is not actually made worse by policing. If there was to be no policing I may start my own business...why not if nobody is going to argue or have a problem with it next door to them. Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: 0

2:46pm Wed 29 Jan 14

benzss says...

Badgersgetabadname wrote:
benzss wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
benzss wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
benzss wrote:
Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.
Any support for earlier comment of how raids such as today are a bad thing? You said it makes everything worse?
I was referring to the overall situation rather than this specific raid.
Ok so how does combating the sale of heroin make things worse overall?
In this and similar instances, it's just a waste of police resources, people are criminalised when they're probably not, or would not be, criminals in the real sense, the vacuum will be created and quickly filled by violent and competitive gangs, etc etc.

Will this or other raids make things worse in the great scheme of things? No, not really. But my point is that they're not making anything better - the net result is a loss for all involved, except perhaps the police's PR department.

All that'll happen is some drugs will go up in price for a bit until supply can be distributed as effectively as it was. That's it.
So the new violent gangs would be taking over from the previous.....violent gangs?????
So your actual point is that nothing has changed? and that everything is not actually made worse by policing.
If there was to be no policing I may start my own business...why not if nobody is going to argue or have a problem with it next door to them.
At the top I called this 'whack-a-mole'. The police can spend the entirety of their year's resources chasing drug dealers, distributors, users, and the cause of most of the problems - prohibition itself - will still exist and STILL be causing problems.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that just because a problem cannot be eradicated that it should instead be ignored or accepted. It's just that the act of drug taking is in itself victimless. It's not a real crime, like theft, assault, etc. The irony is that prohibiting it is in large part responsible for the associated acts of real criminality.
[quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: Another pleasant upshot is people are no longer treated as and viewed by society as criminals for doing the almost literal equivalent of sitting in a pub and having a pint. Fewer police resources wasted and fewer prison spaces taken up by non-violent victimless 'criminals'.[/p][/quote]Any support for earlier comment of how raids such as today are a bad thing? You said it makes everything worse?[/p][/quote]I was referring to the overall situation rather than this specific raid.[/p][/quote]Ok so how does combating the sale of heroin make things worse overall?[/p][/quote]In this and similar instances, it's just a waste of police resources, people are criminalised when they're probably not, or would not be, criminals in the real sense, the vacuum will be created and quickly filled by violent and competitive gangs, etc etc. Will this or other raids make things worse in the great scheme of things? No, not really. But my point is that they're not making anything better - the net result is a loss for all involved, except perhaps the police's PR department. All that'll happen is some drugs will go up in price for a bit until supply can be distributed as effectively as it was. That's it.[/p][/quote]So the new violent gangs would be taking over from the previous.....violent gangs????? So your actual point is that nothing has changed? and that everything is not actually made worse by policing. If there was to be no policing I may start my own business...why not if nobody is going to argue or have a problem with it next door to them.[/p][/quote]At the top I called this 'whack-a-mole'. The police can spend the entirety of their year's resources chasing drug dealers, distributors, users, and the cause of most of the problems - prohibition itself - will still exist and STILL be causing problems. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that just because a problem cannot be eradicated that it should instead be ignored or accepted. It's just that the act of drug taking is in itself victimless. It's not a real crime, like theft, assault, etc. The irony is that prohibiting it is in large part responsible for the associated acts of real criminality. benzss
  • Score: 1

3:22pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Geeward says...

I'm sick of seeing these narrow-minded views when it comes to drug use, usually from someone who has never in fact experimented themselves and scared of that deadly marijuana that seems to be a direct path to full blown heroin addiction. Tabacco, Alcohol and Caffeine are all drugs and currently all legal. What happens every weekend in Town? Is it the illegal drug users smashing windows, having fights, **** all over the streets? No. Show me a Cannabis user that has been been made homeless as a direct result of their drug use? You only need to go to the top of town on any given day to see an alcoholic that has. It's about time that people were allowed to make their own decisions, take the sale of these substances out of the hands of criminals and start taxing and controlling them, then use the added tax money to set up proper support for the addictive substances. Do you know why Cannabis is a gateway drug? Because the same seedy guy selling people the cannabis is also selling the Class A's! Sell these substances at a heavily regulated premises, over the counter not on the shelves and ensure other substances aren't being pushed. Drug related crime will drop massively, human trafficking will dwindle with the loss of profits that is currently supporting it and perhaps take a bit of tourist money while we're at it much like Amsterdam.
People will continue taking these substances if they want and to be honest you don't have to look very far to come across it and I for one would much rather see this done somewhere officially rather than the end of my road!
I'm sick of seeing these narrow-minded views when it comes to drug use, usually from someone who has never in fact experimented themselves and scared of that deadly marijuana that seems to be a direct path to full blown heroin addiction. Tabacco, Alcohol and Caffeine are all drugs and currently all legal. What happens every weekend in Town? Is it the illegal drug users smashing windows, having fights, **** all over the streets? No. Show me a Cannabis user that has been been made homeless as a direct result of their drug use? You only need to go to the top of town on any given day to see an alcoholic that has. It's about time that people were allowed to make their own decisions, take the sale of these substances out of the hands of criminals and start taxing and controlling them, then use the added tax money to set up proper support for the addictive substances. Do you know why Cannabis is a gateway drug? Because the same seedy guy selling people the cannabis is also selling the Class A's! Sell these substances at a heavily regulated premises, over the counter not on the shelves and ensure other substances aren't being pushed. Drug related crime will drop massively, human trafficking will dwindle with the loss of profits that is currently supporting it and perhaps take a bit of tourist money while we're at it much like Amsterdam. People will continue taking these substances if they want and to be honest you don't have to look very far to come across it and I for one would much rather see this done somewhere officially rather than the end of my road! Geeward
  • Score: 3

3:26pm Wed 29 Jan 14

umpcah says...

Quality control ? I`ve been aware of drugtaking at a party I went to years ago but I`ve never been offered any. I have it on good authority that a phone call to a suitable number will follow by delivery of the requirement to any designated location within a very short time. If say £50 seems a bit high the addict will look for a cheaper deal with the risk of lower quality or impurity. Where can the quality control be effected ? Boots the Chemist ? Of course not - there cant be any.
Quality control ? I`ve been aware of drugtaking at a party I went to years ago but I`ve never been offered any. I have it on good authority that a phone call to a suitable number will follow by delivery of the requirement to any designated location within a very short time. If say £50 seems a bit high the addict will look for a cheaper deal with the risk of lower quality or impurity. Where can the quality control be effected ? Boots the Chemist ? Of course not - there cant be any. umpcah
  • Score: 0

3:30pm Wed 29 Jan 14

umpcah says...

umpcah wrote:
Quality control ? I`ve been aware of drugtaking at a party I went to years ago but I`ve never been offered any. I have it on good authority that a phone call to a suitable number will follow by delivery of the requirement to any designated location within a very short time. If say £50 seems a bit high the addict will look for a cheaper deal with the risk of lower quality or impurity. Where can the quality control be effected ? Boots the Chemist ? Of course not - there cant be any.
At the relative party I overhear a bloke advising a girl who was feeling unwell not to take drugs and drink . I presume this is good advice ! So drinkers be aware and druggees be aware !
[quote][p][bold]umpcah[/bold] wrote: Quality control ? I`ve been aware of drugtaking at a party I went to years ago but I`ve never been offered any. I have it on good authority that a phone call to a suitable number will follow by delivery of the requirement to any designated location within a very short time. If say £50 seems a bit high the addict will look for a cheaper deal with the risk of lower quality or impurity. Where can the quality control be effected ? Boots the Chemist ? Of course not - there cant be any.[/p][/quote]At the relative party I overhear a bloke advising a girl who was feeling unwell not to take drugs and drink . I presume this is good advice ! So drinkers be aware and druggees be aware ! umpcah
  • Score: 1

3:31pm Wed 29 Jan 14

benzss says...

umpcah wrote:
Quality control ? I`ve been aware of drugtaking at a party I went to years ago but I`ve never been offered any. I have it on good authority that a phone call to a suitable number will follow by delivery of the requirement to any designated location within a very short time. If say £50 seems a bit high the addict will look for a cheaper deal with the risk of lower quality or impurity. Where can the quality control be effected ? Boots the Chemist ? Of course not - there cant be any.
Deaths from drug taking are almost always related to quality control.
[quote][p][bold]umpcah[/bold] wrote: Quality control ? I`ve been aware of drugtaking at a party I went to years ago but I`ve never been offered any. I have it on good authority that a phone call to a suitable number will follow by delivery of the requirement to any designated location within a very short time. If say £50 seems a bit high the addict will look for a cheaper deal with the risk of lower quality or impurity. Where can the quality control be effected ? Boots the Chemist ? Of course not - there cant be any.[/p][/quote]Deaths from drug taking are almost always related to quality control. benzss
  • Score: 3

4:57pm Wed 29 Jan 14

The Real Librarian says...

benzss wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
dukeofM4 wrote: This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay. Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.
How would you suggest the problem be tackled?
Well, here's the thing. A lot of the problems caused by drugs are in fact caused by their prohibition. We've seen this in the past (alcohol prohibition in early C20th US, which 'worked' in that fewer people drank, but crime skyrocketed), and can see the effects now (Portugal has decriminalised all drugs and seen lower crime and higher treatment rates). So what are the 'problems'? 1) Addiction - when drug use turns to drug abuse, you basically have little choice but to become subsumed into the black market criminal subculture where the drugs are located. This means you are more likely to be viewed as a criminal rather than somebody who needs treatment. In any case, short of passing some horrendously illeberal law banning all substances which may cause addiction, addiction is here to stay and we need to look at how we react to it rather than trying uselessly to stop it. 2) Crime - two types of crime, really. Crimes in the supply chain and crimes committed by people who are 'on drugs'. The first one is much easier to deal with as the solution is quite simple - make the drugs legal. This would quite obviously remove most incentive for violence (turf wars, violent dispute resolution). Secondly, if drug abusers were not forced (I say forced... compelled) to use the criminal black market, it is less likely - not entirely unlikely, as alcohol shows - that they will turn to crime. If the drug is legal, the incentive is lessened. 3) Quality control - you hear about these kids who take pill X in club Y and then die. That happens because the purity or even the type of drug is unknown. If drugs were legal, their production and supply could be regulated and held to standards similar to food and drink. No more accidental overdoses and almost complete transparency. The thing is that you *will not* stop the supply or the use of drugs. Even in countries with death penalties for dealing and even possession still have big drug problems, whether it be meth or alcohol. So the choice is basically either take a bigoted view of drugs and enforce prohibition for prohibition's sake (or for some nebulous moral reason you can't really describe), or take the view that *harm reduction* is more important than a moral crusade. In practical terms, I'd start legalising drug-by-drug and assess each one as the process goes along. Start with the next-to-harmless drugs like cannabis and ecstasy, moving through the hallucinogenics and then take stock when you get to the genuinely harmful ones like meth and heroin (for which alternatives exist, by the way - like opium. Did you know heroin came about because opium was prohibited?).
QUOTE
We've seen this in the past (alcohol prohibition in early C20th US, which 'worked' in that fewer people drank, but crime skyrocketed),
UNQUOTE

No, fewer people did not drink.

During Prohibition, more people drank, people drank more, the number of establishments selling alcohol increased, the number of deaths from alcohol related problems increased and the value of the alcohol business went through the roof.

The only thing that went down was the government's tax revenue.
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]dukeofM4[/bold] wrote: This won't have any long term impact. The Drug Dealers are always hiring with good tax free pay. Might keep the Police, solicitors, and court occupied, but long term impact NO.[/p][/quote]How would you suggest the problem be tackled?[/p][/quote]Well, here's the thing. A lot of the problems caused by drugs are in fact caused by their prohibition. We've seen this in the past (alcohol prohibition in early C20th US, which 'worked' in that fewer people drank, but crime skyrocketed), and can see the effects now (Portugal has decriminalised all drugs and seen lower crime and higher treatment rates). So what are the 'problems'? 1) Addiction - when drug use turns to drug abuse, you basically have little choice but to become subsumed into the black market criminal subculture where the drugs are located. This means you are more likely to be viewed as a criminal rather than somebody who needs treatment. In any case, short of passing some horrendously illeberal law banning all substances which may cause addiction, addiction is here to stay and we need to look at how we react to it rather than trying uselessly to stop it. 2) Crime - two types of crime, really. Crimes in the supply chain and crimes committed by people who are 'on drugs'. The first one is much easier to deal with as the solution is quite simple - make the drugs legal. This would quite obviously remove most incentive for violence (turf wars, violent dispute resolution). Secondly, if drug abusers were not forced (I say forced... compelled) to use the criminal black market, it is less likely - not entirely unlikely, as alcohol shows - that they will turn to crime. If the drug is legal, the incentive is lessened. 3) Quality control - you hear about these kids who take pill X in club Y and then die. That happens because the purity or even the type of drug is unknown. If drugs were legal, their production and supply could be regulated and held to standards similar to food and drink. No more accidental overdoses and almost complete transparency. The thing is that you *will not* stop the supply or the use of drugs. Even in countries with death penalties for dealing and even possession still have big drug problems, whether it be meth or alcohol. So the choice is basically either take a bigoted view of drugs and enforce prohibition for prohibition's sake (or for some nebulous moral reason you can't really describe), or take the view that *harm reduction* is more important than a moral crusade. In practical terms, I'd start legalising drug-by-drug and assess each one as the process goes along. Start with the next-to-harmless drugs like cannabis and ecstasy, moving through the hallucinogenics and then take stock when you get to the genuinely harmful ones like meth and heroin (for which alternatives exist, by the way - like opium. Did you know heroin came about because opium was prohibited?).[/p][/quote]QUOTE We've seen this in the past (alcohol prohibition in early C20th US, which 'worked' in that fewer people drank, but crime skyrocketed), UNQUOTE No, fewer people did not drink. During Prohibition, more people drank, people drank more, the number of establishments selling alcohol increased, the number of deaths from alcohol related problems increased and the value of the alcohol business went through the roof. The only thing that went down was the government's tax revenue. The Real Librarian
  • Score: 1

5:48pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Dr Martin says...

http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Prohibition
_in_the_United_State
s

Rates of consumption during Prohibition

Illegal sales are not officially reported or measured, but there are indirect estimates using alcohol related deaths and cirrhosis, a disease linked specifically to ongoing alcohol consumption. Scholars estimate that consumption dropped to a low of about 60% of pre-prohibition levels around 1925, rising to almost 80% before the law was officially repealed.

so Alcohol consumption dropped during prohibition
http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Prohibition _in_the_United_State s Rates of consumption during Prohibition Illegal sales are not officially reported or measured, but there are indirect estimates using alcohol related deaths and cirrhosis, a disease linked specifically to ongoing alcohol consumption. Scholars estimate that consumption dropped to a low of about 60% of pre-prohibition levels around 1925, rising to almost 80% before the law was officially repealed. so Alcohol consumption dropped during prohibition Dr Martin
  • Score: 1

10:05pm Wed 29 Jan 14

dukeofM4 says...

@Badgersgetabadname -

Why Prohibition didn't work:

Smuggling from Canada, Bahamas, Mexico, Cuba and others. If you lived near the coast, fisherman were a good source.

People drinking wood alcohol, going blind and dying. Heck it happened last year in Prague where it's legal

Paid off law enforcement

Speak Easy's flourished

Lack of Federal resource a few 100 to cover the entire US

Al Capone, JFK's father and others (remember they took Al down for tax evasion not bootlegging)

Well paid criminals

I'm not suggesting to make everything legal, however, the current model doesn't work as well. As long as organised crime are chasing profits, the police are a 'cost of doing business.'.

The US has tried to lock their way out of drugs, and today 20 states have de-criminalised it. Washington state and Colorado are now basically Amsterdam.

But the most powerful reason of all, the people didn't believe in Prohibition. While drug taking splits the public more, the hard core of people are not going to stop because it's illegal.

It's got to be debated and managed.
@Badgersgetabadname - Why Prohibition didn't work: Smuggling from Canada, Bahamas, Mexico, Cuba and others. If you lived near the coast, fisherman were a good source. People drinking wood alcohol, going blind and dying. Heck it happened last year in Prague where it's legal Paid off law enforcement Speak Easy's flourished Lack of Federal resource a few 100 to cover the entire US Al Capone, JFK's father and others (remember they took Al down for tax evasion not bootlegging) Well paid criminals I'm not suggesting to make everything legal, however, the current model doesn't work as well. As long as organised crime are chasing profits, the police are a 'cost of doing business.'. The US has tried to lock their way out of drugs, and today 20 states have de-criminalised it. Washington state and Colorado are now basically Amsterdam. But the most powerful reason of all, the people didn't believe in Prohibition. While drug taking splits the public more, the hard core of people are not going to stop because it's illegal. It's got to be debated and managed. dukeofM4
  • Score: 0

11:36am Thu 30 Jan 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

dukeofM4 wrote:
@Badgersgetabadname -

Why Prohibition didn't work:

Smuggling from Canada, Bahamas, Mexico, Cuba and others. If you lived near the coast, fisherman were a good source.

People drinking wood alcohol, going blind and dying. Heck it happened last year in Prague where it's legal

Paid off law enforcement

Speak Easy's flourished

Lack of Federal resource a few 100 to cover the entire US

Al Capone, JFK's father and others (remember they took Al down for tax evasion not bootlegging)

Well paid criminals

I'm not suggesting to make everything legal, however, the current model doesn't work as well. As long as organised crime are chasing profits, the police are a 'cost of doing business.'.

The US has tried to lock their way out of drugs, and today 20 states have de-criminalised it. Washington state and Colorado are now basically Amsterdam.

But the most powerful reason of all, the people didn't believe in Prohibition. While drug taking splits the public more, the hard core of people are not going to stop because it's illegal.

It's got to be debated and managed.
Er...I already agreed that a phased introduction would be a good idea.
Almost anything illegal will generate a black market so by your logic guns, prostitution etc etc...all to be made legal or to those with a permit, as a model the US have used for years in gun control and that has proved successful.
I dont think I suggested prohibition at all did I?
No the current system does not work, as far as freeing up police time maybe more departments beat cops for asbo type crime, detectives for more serious and dedicated teams for serious crimes...thats what we have but not enough of them. Asbo type crimes are largely ignored this reduces public confidence in the Police so less is reported.
As mentioned before Portugal have made all drugs legal and their crime rate has significantly dropped??? seems logical when drugs are no longer considered a crime so the short term figures for this are misleading at best.
This is a great topic to discuss.
[quote][p][bold]dukeofM4[/bold] wrote: @Badgersgetabadname - Why Prohibition didn't work: Smuggling from Canada, Bahamas, Mexico, Cuba and others. If you lived near the coast, fisherman were a good source. People drinking wood alcohol, going blind and dying. Heck it happened last year in Prague where it's legal Paid off law enforcement Speak Easy's flourished Lack of Federal resource a few 100 to cover the entire US Al Capone, JFK's father and others (remember they took Al down for tax evasion not bootlegging) Well paid criminals I'm not suggesting to make everything legal, however, the current model doesn't work as well. As long as organised crime are chasing profits, the police are a 'cost of doing business.'. The US has tried to lock their way out of drugs, and today 20 states have de-criminalised it. Washington state and Colorado are now basically Amsterdam. But the most powerful reason of all, the people didn't believe in Prohibition. While drug taking splits the public more, the hard core of people are not going to stop because it's illegal. It's got to be debated and managed.[/p][/quote]Er...I already agreed that a phased introduction would be a good idea. Almost anything illegal will generate a black market so by your logic guns, prostitution etc etc...all to be made legal or to those with a permit, as a model the US have used for years in gun control and that has proved successful. I dont think I suggested prohibition at all did I? No the current system does not work, as far as freeing up police time maybe more departments beat cops for asbo type crime, detectives for more serious and dedicated teams for serious crimes...thats what we have but not enough of them. Asbo type crimes are largely ignored this reduces public confidence in the Police so less is reported. As mentioned before Portugal have made all drugs legal and their crime rate has significantly dropped??? seems logical when drugs are no longer considered a crime so the short term figures for this are misleading at best. This is a great topic to discuss. Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: 0

5:09pm Thu 30 Jan 14

JamieKatastrophe says...

everyone banging on about "what would you have done?" and "every little helps" its fairly simple. decriminalise and put the drugs on the nhs. other countries have done it and crime is down up to 97% ie holland. it puts dealers out of business all the way up the chain and makes taxes go up tenfold. its a disgrace that people who eat too much get fat and inevitability need medical help recieve it yet smoking a bit of weed or doing a trip is recieved by society on the same level as a peadophile, and lands you in prison not hospital.
everyone banging on about "what would you have done?" and "every little helps" its fairly simple. decriminalise and put the drugs on the nhs. other countries have done it and crime is down up to 97% ie holland. it puts dealers out of business all the way up the chain and makes taxes go up tenfold. its a disgrace that people who eat too much get fat and inevitability need medical help recieve it yet smoking a bit of weed or doing a trip is recieved by society on the same level as a peadophile, and lands you in prison not hospital. JamieKatastrophe
  • Score: -35

8:03pm Thu 30 Jan 14

Dr Martin says...

"crime is down up to 97% ie holland"

That is quite a boast, got a link to prove it?
"crime is down up to 97% ie holland" That is quite a boast, got a link to prove it? Dr Martin
  • Score: 1

9:23am Sat 1 Feb 14

Badgersgetabadname says...

house on the hill wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
house on the hill wrote:
Badgersgetabadname wrote:
SomeoneWhoIsntMe wrote:
ladd135 wrote:
I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.
How are they ruining our childrens lives?

If you can't raise a child to have good cognitive functions which allow them to deal with the pressures of the world, instead of turning to drugs (inc. alcohol/tobacco), then you are ruining your own children's lives.
Not sure about the lives of specifically children but we all have the right not to live next door to an illegal business....This creates a toxic atmosphere that has consequences for all.
We know these things (Alcahol, tobacco and drugs) are unhealthy but still continue to use and abuse them. Why is society so dependent on these things?
Because people are basically weak and need some sort of "crutch" to survive and would rather resort to mind altering drugs than build any sort of intelligence or imagination and live in the real world. Loads of them still think there is a God for goodness sake. As with everything its about taking the easy option rather than the right one. Clearly some on here have never lost friends or relatives to drugs or they would not be so cavalier with their pathetic attitudes!
I have lost a number of friends and family to drugs over the years.
"People are basically weak" nice to see you have trust or faith in fellow man.
Not sure why the mention of religion surely of any "crutches" this would be least harmful.
You mentioned taking an easy option rather the the right one? just curious but what is the right one?
Using your inner strength to get you through life and growing a backbone rather than running to a bottle or a packet or a pill or a book when times get tough. Life is so much more enjoyable in the real world.

So tell me, how many people do you know that would honestly trust with your life, I bet if you were realistic it wouldn't be that many, sad but true and I mean real friend not just "mates". The very fact that so many clearly use drugs points to their weakness.
Not sure what you are trying to say here....
so many who clearly use drugs?
[quote][p][bold]house on the hill[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]house on the hill[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Badgersgetabadname[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SomeoneWhoIsntMe[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ladd135[/bold] wrote: I would rather see this then no action at all,it may seem fruitless,and a pointless exercise at times, but we cant let these scum make thousands of pounds while ruining our childrens lives and the crime that drugs fuel.[/p][/quote]How are they ruining our childrens lives? If you can't raise a child to have good cognitive functions which allow them to deal with the pressures of the world, instead of turning to drugs (inc. alcohol/tobacco), then you are ruining your own children's lives.[/p][/quote]Not sure about the lives of specifically children but we all have the right not to live next door to an illegal business....This creates a toxic atmosphere that has consequences for all. We know these things (Alcahol, tobacco and drugs) are unhealthy but still continue to use and abuse them. Why is society so dependent on these things?[/p][/quote]Because people are basically weak and need some sort of "crutch" to survive and would rather resort to mind altering drugs than build any sort of intelligence or imagination and live in the real world. Loads of them still think there is a God for goodness sake. As with everything its about taking the easy option rather than the right one. Clearly some on here have never lost friends or relatives to drugs or they would not be so cavalier with their pathetic attitudes![/p][/quote]I have lost a number of friends and family to drugs over the years. "People are basically weak" nice to see you have trust or faith in fellow man. Not sure why the mention of religion surely of any "crutches" this would be least harmful. You mentioned taking an easy option rather the the right one? just curious but what is the right one?[/p][/quote]Using your inner strength to get you through life and growing a backbone rather than running to a bottle or a packet or a pill or a book when times get tough. Life is so much more enjoyable in the real world. So tell me, how many people do you know that would honestly trust with your life, I bet if you were realistic it wouldn't be that many, sad but true and I mean real friend not just "mates". The very fact that so many clearly use drugs points to their weakness.[/p][/quote]Not sure what you are trying to say here.... so many who clearly use drugs? Badgersgetabadname
  • Score: 0

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